2 rifles at the crime scene

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

conspiracybuff wrote:Pitzer family members have stated unequivocally that he was right-handed. but, to me, his death is still suspect.Are you sure about him being right handed. My information is that he was left handed...according to one of his co-workers named Dennis David. I remember also seeing a documentary where a coworker, a petty officer, said that they used to tease him "harass" him as I think he put it because he was left handed and would deal cards the opposite way than the rest of them did. Could the family members you're referring to been cooerced? I'm pretty sure that Pitzer's wife was approached by government people or Navy people basically telling her to shut up or they would take away her pension and such.

[John Beckham]

i believe his wife even said he was right handed. i think some confusion may be caused by his autopsy photo's "Most, if not all, of the photographs are reversed, as revealed by the wedding ring appearing to be on the right hand, whereas the deceased wore it on his left hand."http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Pitzer/Article-6.html

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

conspiracybuff wrote:i believe his wife even said he was right handed. i think some confusion may be caused by his autopsy photo's "Most, if not all, of the photographs are reversed, as revealed by the wedding ring appearing to be on the right hand, whereas the deceased wore it on his left hand."http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Pitzer/Article-6.htmlI know what you're talking about...not about the autopsy photos but about what his wife said about him being right handed. There's a discrepancy as his coworker said the opposite of what his wife said. I know that the wife was harrassed and told to keep quiet. I believe that she didn't even get to see the autopsy report for years after he died as well.I'm pretty sure that the FBI report also indicated that he had been shot from a distance of about three feet and that nitrate or gun powder tests on his hands came up negative.

[John Beckham]

again, it doesn't make his death less suspicious to me. perhaps they did mess up and "commit suicide" on the wrong side of his head. perhaps people were threatened, disimformation created. perhaps somewhere out there is a picture of him using his hands...

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

I totally agree. There's definitely a discrepancy in what people said about him being right or left handed.Here's a link from the "expendableelite" website with some more information on the Pitzer killing. There's no mention of the right versus left hand issue, however. Anyway, Marvin appears to be working on a book that I definitely want to read...about the Pitzer killing.Here's the link.http://www.expendableelite.com/UW_archi ... .0004.html

[ChristophMessner]

So did Craig say the truth, when he said it was a Mauser 7.65? Who brought this weapon in there and hid it at the stairwell going downstairs? Who brought when a Mannlicher Carcano? Why did Marrion Baker and Mr. Truly find anything suspicious on their way upstairs after 2nd floor? Obviously the real sniper left 3 6.5 shells in a row on the floor. Was this the reason why they changed from Mauser to Carcano from one day to the other and ordered the media to report strictly likewise?Is the real sniper on the Alyea-film? Did Oswald ever know about a rifle on 6th floor before?

[John Beckham]

i'm having my doubts with Roger Craig at times. he obviously was there. i think he did see Lee and a rambler. maybe even his comment about Ruths car, i find interesting. but, here's the delima...what version do you believe? it's also easy to knock off someone, but when that's not working, you call him a nut? Roger Craig, he was hard to kill! lol! first version begins with reports that the rifle discovered in the Depository was not a Mannlicher-Carcano, but a Mauser. All of these reports had a common origin: the identification of the rifle as a Mauser by Sheriff's Dep. Seymour Weitzman, who glanced at the gun as it lay on the floor amid a pile of boxes. This identification was repeated by other officers such as Eugene Boone, and picked up by the media. But J.C. Day of the Dallas Police Identification Bureau announced that the rifle was in fact a Mannlicher-Carcano. Was the Mannlicher-Carcano substituted for the Mauser in the chain of evidence? second.In their book Oswald Talked, the Ray and Mary LaFontaine accept the "6th floor Mauser" story, and then up the ante by concluding that two rifles were found in the Depository: a Mauser on the 6th floor, and a Mannlicher-Carcano on the 4th or 5th floor. Their sole source of the "lower floor" theory is a single witness.Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a second search of the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963, according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run out from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs." Third, featured in Robert Groden's book The Killing of a President, is based on amateur movie footage shot by Ernest Charles Mentesana on the day of the assassination. The Mentesana film shows a brief scene of a cop with a long gun on a fire escape outside an upper floor of the Depository, and then cuts to a scene of several police officers huddled in a discussion. One of the officers has a long gun on his shoulder. Groden tells his readers that the film shows a rifle that was "reportedly handed down . . . from the roof to the seventh floor fire escape, and examined . . . on the street" Groden adds "this gun is not a Carcano, and has never been placed into evidence." fourth, The rifle discovered on the sixth floor of the Depository was photographed in place by Officer Studebaker, and then its recovery was photographed on 16 mm. film by TV cameraman Tom Alyea. The rifle shown in the films is a Mannlicher-Carcano. Frank Ellsworth's story is admitted hearsay and is contradicted by literally every witness who testified about the recovery of the rifle. And Groden's "second rifle" is actually a shotgun of the kind that numerous cops had in Dealey Plaza. The officers are not "examining" it, but are merely gathered together having a discussion, with one officer holding the gun on his shoulder.

[ChristophMessner]

Thanks a lot for all this information, John! John Beckham wrote: Roger Craig, he was hard to kill! lol! It's not t h a t funny, isn't it? Roger Craig was a brave and honest man, who was killed for his braveness and honesty. John Beckham wrote: first version begins with reports that the rifle discovered in the Depository was not a Mannlicher-Carcano, but a Mauser. All of these reports had a common origin: the identification of the rifle as a Mauser by Sheriff's Dep. Seymour Weitzman, who glanced at the gun as it lay on the floor amid a pile of boxes. This identification was repeated by other officers such as Eugene Boone, and picked up by the media. But J.C. Day of the Dallas Police Identification Bureau announced that the rifle was in fact a Mannlicher-Carcano. Was the Mannlicher-Carcano substituted for the Mauser in the chain of evidence? Of course, the guys from the PD cared for presenting a weapon, which could be traced back to the programmed patsy Oswald. Obviously it was the order for the sniper or somebody else, to leave 3 shells there, to which the PD will choose the matching rifle and story. But Weitzman, who gave a very suspicious testimony of his meeting the "yardman" behind the picket fence by the way, did not confer with Fritz thoroughly enough before ... John Beckham wrote: second.In their book Oswald Talked, the Ray and Mary LaFontaine accept the "6th floor Mauser" story, and then up the ante by concluding that two rifles were found in the Depository: a Mauser on the 6th floor, and a Mannlicher-Carcano on the 4th or 5th floor. Their sole source of the "lower floor" theory is a single witness. Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a second search of the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22, 1963, according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth floor of the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He adds: "I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run out from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs." Wouldn't witnesses Norman, Williams, Jarman have seen any sniper hiding any weapon on their floor? Confirming a spectacular find and NOT knowing which floor exactly??? Is that possible? Most probable Truly hid a rifle somewhere and "curtain rods" are an invention of this Frazier. John Beckham wrote: Third, ... Mentesana film ... Groden tells his readers that the film shows a rifle that was "reportedly handed down . . . from the roof to the seventh floor fire escape, and examined . . . on the street" Groden adds "this gun is not a Carcano, and has never been placed into evidence." More and more and more guns and rifles ... John Beckham wrote: fourth, The rifle discovered on the sixth floor of the Depository was photographed in place by Officer Studebaker, and then its recovery was photographed on 16 mm. film by TV cameraman Tom Alyea. The rifle shown in the films is a Mannlicher-Carcano. Frank Ellsworth's story is admitted hearsay and is contradicted by literally every witness who testified about the recovery of the rifle. And Groden's "second rifle" is actually a shotgun of the kind that numerous cops had in Dealey Plaza. The officers are not "examining" it, but are merely gathered together having a discussion, with one officer holding the gun on his shoulder. Anyway it is clear, that the PD acted intentionally unprofessional, did not really search the real sniper, even "searched" with him for the "sniper", and worked together with TSBD staff other than Oswald, to bring patsy rifles into before.

[Bob]

Chris, have you ever seen this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyvRfeLD ... =relatedBy the way, Mark Lane is right up there in my eyes, along with Jim Garrison, as people who early on knew there was something amiss with the Warren Commission and the bullshit they tried to shovel to the American people.

[John Beckham]

i'm not making light of Craig, it's just that he was hard to get rid of. perhaps made many assassins look bad.