Gary Marlow

[Bob]

Bruce Patrick Brychek wrote:Dear Mr. Barney 1961, and Fellow JFK Forum Members:Barney - I could not disagree with you more, and anybody else who claims that there was a Bullet Hole Through And Through the JFK limo window, in support of a frontal throat shot of any kind, from any angle to JFK. Please support your position with verifiable facts, and photos.The fact that you quote some obscure Parkland employee, or factory worker after evidence alteration or tampering does not hold water for me, and does not count for anything. And I systematically deny any verbal or written reports supporting this Red Herring Argument without verifiable facts, and photos.Please watch, as I have stated numerous times within the JFK Forum before:1. Jim Garrison's Assassination Tapes of a live video taken less than 3 minutes after the limo arrived at Parkland Hospital. No Through And Through Bullet Hole at all, let alone the size of a Number 2 pencil. Only a small crack and chip. Please contradict this with verifiable facts, and photos, not an unverifiable statement.2. JFK II, the video also shows different angles of the limo window. No Through And Through Bullet Hole. There is a small crack and chip ONLY, NO THROUGH AND THROUGH BULLET HOLE. Please contradict this with verifiable facts, and photos.Much like the Pentagon Wall after 09.11.2001, before the collapse you see a small Tomahawk Missile or Bunker Buster clear hole. Then the wall collapses on T.V. Later they show the collapsed wall claiming that the wall collapsed immediately when hit by the disappearing 747.Your argument is further nullified by common sense and experience. Assuming for the sake of argument that a bullet did go through the window the size of a .22, or Number 2 pencil, it would have been mangled and hit JFK in the throat tearing open his throat. Not a very small hole. This argument also fails because of this factual analysis. Please contradict this with verifiable facts, and photos.No bullet in existence then or now could penetrate a limo window in pristine condition the size of a .22 and make a small hole in the throat because the bullet would have been mangled, and therefore very easily found. It was not found. Please contradict this with verifiable facts, and photos.In addition to the bullet never being found, where is that alleged bullet path which was never seen or documented ? Further, the head wound was traced to JFK'S throat. Please contradict this with verifiable facts, and photos.I totally and completely discount this contrived story that fails by every alternate means of analysis. It just doesn't work. Period.Unless and until I read and see verifiable facts, and photos, what I have seen from several sources cannot be overcome.Finally, has anyone ever had a cracked front window ? What happens when you drive it, start, stop, etc. ? The window KEEPS CRACKING JUST LIKE THE PENTAGON WALL. And the limo had a very heavy duty transmission to account for the extra weight, causing excessive pulling and pressure. If in fact any hole was actually seen later, it had left the chain of custody, and would easily be discounted because of fatigue cracks, further cracking, evidence tampering, abuse, mishandling of the evidence, etc. LBJ immediately had the car cleaned with buckets of water at the hospital. Beyond Garrison's videos 3 minutes after arrival, there was a Free For All around JFK'S limo. Certainly not a well preserved crime scene for The Crime Of The Century as some have called it.Barney - You are a new and enthusiastic JFK Forum Member with many great contributions. While I feel strongly on this above referenced issue, I am arguing the facts based upon my research and study on this Subject Matter. We may agree on many issues. We may disagree on this issue. At best, I am probably an acquired taste. Nothing above is meant in any way, shape, or form as any personal attack. I generally agree about 80 % - 90 % with most of the JFK Forum Members. But I sincerely try to avoid being personal. My above diatribe is Totally an Academic Argument. Thank You.Comments ?Respectfully, Bruce Patrick Brychek.Bruce makes some excellent and concise points. I will expound on this, as I have before as well...The biggest question I have about the supposed throat wound is this...where is the exit wound? There is none. The area of the wound was a soft tissue area. Listen to Thom Robinson, who was at Bethesda for the pre-autopsy procedure that altered the head wounds on JFK as well as the actual autopsy. He is a key witness in Douglas Horne's book (Inside the Assassination Records Review Board: The U.S. Government's Final Attempt to Reconcile the Conflicting Medical Evidence in the Assassination of JFK ). Robinson is the mortician that Wim has mentioned before in other posts. Here is one of those posts by Wim...Lastly, what you don't know is that I have an interview with Thom Robinson, wherein he states that the gaping hole in JFK's skull was probed with a tiny probe and that one of those probes from INSIDE the skull came out at the throat wound! That's why he told me that he has always been very quiet about this, but that he has chuckled for all those years at the conspiracy buffs who claim JFK was shot in the throat from the front. He knew better since 1963. And I know better since I spoke to him. I should have known better earlier by listening to Jimmy, instead of to the JFK research community, and what they have brainwashed themselves with. I too was a victim of what I wanted to believe, and looked so self-evident.Again, Robinson was PRESENT at the pre-autopsy procedure that altered JFK's wounds as well as the autopsy. Horne talks about all the problems at the autopsy in his book. In addition, in the Jim Garrison Tapes, part of the video shows the limo at Parkland immediately after the assassination. It shows the windshield, and there is a chip or a crack there that shows the impact of a bullet. However, it also shows that the impact did not go through the windshield.

[kenmurray]

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/limo/CE ... ld_out.jpg

[Bighunter43]

First of all, no disrespect to anyone's theories on the origin of the shots. I have always believed that JFK was shot in the throat (first shot)........to me, I tend to have always believed what the Parkland Doctor's saw (since they were "EXPERTS" and were EYEWITNESSES to the wounds and NONE of us were).........I also have always believed that JFK's raising of arms to his throat indicated a shot from the front. However, I can NOW see the point made by WIM, Bruce, Bob and others about the possibilbity of a shot in the back muscles (where we see that hole in JFK's back in some photos) could make him raise his arms as scene in the Z film. I am divided on this issue: ONE: look at the Altgens photo: This photo is taken AFTER the 1st shot and JFK is already hit! I always wondered if the shot came from the front, then why are the SS men on the right side of the follow up car looking BACK over their right shoulders. Makes sense that THE shot in question may have come from the rear and hit JFK in the back! (no throat wound yet)..............and furthermore, no "bullet hole" in the windshield!Bruce...I think here is what Barney 1961 is referring to and I found it at http://www.blackopradio.com/JFK%20Chronology%202.pdf on page 48 ( a fascinating read I might ad).................The Presidential limousine is reportedly at least partially cleaned while it is parked at Parkland Hospital’s emergency entrance. The bubble-top is put on. (There is no record of any evidence found at this time. The car will eventually be driven to Love Field and placed aboard a plane by Secret Service Agent Kinney.) Several people examine what is later described as a bullet hole in the front windshield of the car while it is parked at the hospital. Dallas Police Officer H. R. Freeman will note: “I was right beside it. I could have touched it. It was a bullet hole. You could tell what it was.” Dallas Police Officer Stavis Ellis remarks “You could put a pencil through it.” A Secret Service agent tries to persuade Ellis that what he is seeing is a “fragment” and not a hole. Mr. Ellis is adamant: “It wasn’t a damn fragment. It was a hole.” Dr. Evalea Glanges, a second year medical student at Southwestern, also sees the bullet hole in the windshield. When she calls attention to it, the limousine is quickly driven away.So, in my own mind, I will continue to pursue my own research on the so called "entrance wound", as I am now shifting from the "world is flat, to the world is round theory!"

[Bruce Patrick Brychek]

Dear Mr. Bighunter 43, Barney 1961, and Fellow JFK Forum Members:Bighunter 43, certainly no disrespect is meant either way, with you or Barney 1961. Good Point. I totally agree.Moving On For Further Clarification Of My Points And Not Taking Any Issue With Bighunter 43, or Barney 1961.Everybody assuming that a possible bullet mark, chip and crack to the window, and a mark to JFK'S throat, thinking along these lines, assumes what is called a Sum All Fallacy, i.e., the chip and crack in the limo windshield is FROM THE OUTSIDE. There is absolutely no proof of that whatsoever, anywhere. That is a totally preposterous presumption, unless and until substantiated and verified. Further, windshield cracks continue to develop after occurring. Sequential Time Analysis is absolute, especially in this case.Jimmy Files always maintained that his Exploding Mercury Tipped Hollow Point, which was later proven to exit JFK'S throat, hit the windshield, FROM THE INSIDE.Has anyone ever seen a dum-dum or an Exploding Mercury Tipped Hollow Point hit, fragment/splinter, and exit like a shot gun blast in multiple directions ? I have. The shrapnel comes out like numerous multi-directional small bullets, similar to a multi-directional shot gun blast in effect, in an unnatural pattern.The simplistic, unsubstantiated, unverified points often advanced about JFK'S throat wound, and the limo windshield prove nothing to me at any serious level of analysis, and are mere contrived conclusions based upon superficial speculation.1. I maintain that the EXIT WOUND FROM JFK'S THROAT hit the windshield from the inside.2. JFK'S head wound was traced OUT OF HIS HEAD TO HIS THROAT, and substantially documented. Hence, NO THROAT ENTRANCE WOUND TO JFK.3. The limo was driven at high speed to Parkland Hospital, stopped abruptly, and then worked on after the Jim Garrison video was taken, while still in the parking lot at Parkland Hospital. Substantially documented.4. For the sake of argument even if a bullet came through the windshield, it would have been mangled, tore JFK'S throat open, and been easily found. None of this occurred, and certainly CAN NOT BE PROVEN.5. For the sake of argument, even if there was a hole of any kind in the windshield, there is no proof that supports a frontal throat shot to JFK. Absolutely No Concrete Evidence whatsoever anywhere. No analysis ever took into account a Mercury Tipped Hollow Point Exploding Throughout JFK'S Skull, NONE.6. For the sake of argument, even if there was a hole of any kind in the windshield, there is no substantiated, verified proof that the Proximate Cause came from outside of the limo windshield, i.e., a shot from the front.7. I believe what I have seen in Jim Garrison's videos, and other videos, which is supported by eye-witness experts over any errant reports that were never investigated or verified. Further, these errant reports were at best only superficial verbal reports never authenticated, notarized, taken under oath, or verified against actual unmoved, untouched evidence.8. Every amateur and simplistic, superficial analysis NEVER TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT JFK WAS HIT WITH AN EXPLODING BULLET, that exploded throughout JFK'S head, and exited his throat, forward toward the inside of the limo windshield. This has been verified.9. Wim has previously documented in the JFK Forum that JFK'S FACE HAD TO BE FILLED WITH CLAY AND WAX BY THE MORTICIAN TO FILL OTHER EXIT WOUNDS TO JFK"S FACE, in addition to the documented exit wound to JFK'S throat. I find absolutely no compelling or conclusive evidence by any source anywhere in all of my research and study on this Subject Matter. Bighunter 43, Thank You for your excellent response. I wish to underscore that I am arguing the combined results of my research and study, Jim Garrison's, Thom Robinson's, Wim Dankbaar's, Bob Fox's, and others.Comments ?Respectfully,Bruce Patrick Brychek.

[barney 1961]

8/28/10Fellow Members; yes, being new here to this forum, but certainly not new to this conspiracy investigation from afar, I make no assumptions,concrete facts, nor buried in concrete factual observations, I was not there, just like everyone else, heard it on the car radio and on thetv all weekend long, what else was there on the tv for that entire weekend and Monday.No one is saying what James Files states is a lie or erroneous. We are all just curious,to varying degrees,and question anything and everythingabout this murder, as one who is independtly minded should approach such a subject, Murder of the President of the United States.Personally, due to his civil rights stances and other issues, I was never very fond of JFK, however, compared to ole stodgy Eisenhower and mebeing shortly out of college. K represented a totally new kind of Kat, his mannerism, speech handsome good looks, especially,those ofhis wife, Jackie Kennedy, and having two children in the White House. Of course,most of us were wary of a so-called Kennedy Triumvirate withRobert in the wings, followed by Teddy Boy, if all went as planned by old man Joe Kennedy, after Joseph Jr. was killed during WWII.What puzzles some of us, is the fact that the Murder of the President of the United States, would hinge on the actions of a 21-22 year oldex-military man and at the last few hours before this motorcade drove down Elm Street. I have few doubts from reading numerous reportsand books, that Johnny Roselli, Col Rawlston, as he was known in the group of assassins and spooks, was not likely to get involved in theactual shootings at the limo. At his level of operatons there just were to many others in the Outfit on scene hoping to becoming famous ormore appropriatly, infamous for making those shots count. In my own opinion, there were from 3-4 teams of shooters and spotters and radiomen present in Dealey Plaza that day, remember Chauncey Marvin Holt's remarks, " hell it looked like old homecoming week down there." If any of you saw the recent video of James Leon Ward, of Blanco, Texas, he avers that in hindsight he feels the real shooting was set to go down when K gave his morning speech in Ft. Worth, Tx. before the breakfast speech and then on to Dallas for a lucheon speech there.If one reviews some photos of that speech area, there are numerous tall bldgs nearby and numerous open windows in plain view of thearea where the dignitaries met after the morning rain and K was to give a brief speech to the gathering crowd. Ward states, he was a hitmanworking in NY, and was sent to take care of the two wouldbe assassins, who he names Echo and Argo, who he had known as gamblers and hired hitmen from the Cuba casino glory days of the Cuban and Florida mafia gangsters, incld. Las Vegas actors.I have several XP-100's and several other single shot handguns in various calibers. If Wolfman, the Outfits go to guy for arms & ammo was to create these bullets , why pick a .221 Fireball, even a .222 or .223, since there are so many larger calibers available which are so mucheasier to fill the projectile with mercury droplets and seal over with hardened wax, thus creating an explosive or frangible round. The .221shoots a .45 to .55 grain projectile tops, at around 3,000 fps. So does a .223 round or better yet a .22-250 caliber.It could be thatBig Hunter forum member may be correct and the person I saw on the interview as to the windshield thru and thru hole wasa medical student versus being a doctor, as this video clip was seen years ago as was the clip from the Linc.-Mercury repair supervisor whoonly came forward in the 1980's for fear of becoming another K death row statistic.If the brass casing around the lead were to strip off a round, yes, it could send particles all over the brain and out thru a neck wound, howeversuch a wound would not be so tiny and so round as described by Dr. McClellland at Parkland Hospital ER and Dr. Peters, who were two of thevery first trauma physicians to arrive at the trauma wound once the President had been placed on an operating table. One must understandthere was mass confusion in the ER, in the hallway nest to the ER and also, outside in the parking area where the limos used were parked.Therefore, just what people observed, did, or thought they saw or said, is subject to open conjecture having no hard facts to rely upon.

[Bighunter43]

Bruce, Maybe you didn't read what I said. I said I have always believed that JFK was hit in the throat, but the THEORIES presented on here have got me second guessing! (I was AGREEING with YOU, not DISPUTING you!)..............The quotes I found were what I think 1961 was looking for! However, I will continue to look at it from BOTH sides, as I don't think we have anything YET that can be considered 100% without a doubt final! You said:5. For the sake of argument, even if there is a hole of any kind, there is no proof that supports a frontal throat shot to JFK. Absolutely No Concrete Evidence whatsoever anywhere. No analysis ever took into account a Mercury Tipped Hollow Point Exploding Throughout JFK'S Skull, NONE.6. I believe what I have seen in videos, which is supported by eye-witness experts over any errant reports that were never investigated or verified.Eyewitness testimony has been proven to be reliable and unreliable. The difficult thing that since NONE of us were there, we have to pick out who's testimony to believe or discount! I tend to want to believe the doctors at Parkland and what they saw, but they (and thus I) could be terribly wrong. I would tend to think that they might argue with what you said in #5. Yes, they didn't know what a mercury tipped exploding load could do, and so maybe they were at a disadvantage. I will say this, it's amazing (but possible) that a mercury load could hit the head and a fragment could and go down the throat, then change directions and EXIT from the front of the throat (magic bullet like)........and be seen as an entrance wound at Parkland. If there were so many fragments flying around that car from that final shot and one could hit and crack the windshield (entirely possible)........it's also kind of strange and amazing that none of the OTHER occupants in that car got hit by any fragments! Bruce, I truly believe JF hit JFK with that exploding mercury load, but where the fragments went is only pure conjecture at best. You, Bob and Wim have sure given me reason to doubt my old beliefs........and yet the most important thing is that WE ALL believe it was more than one shooter! I'm glad I found this website and I appreciate all your hard work and insight, not to mention the valuable input from JF! In addition, NOW I will look at it from BOTH perspectives.

[Bruce Patrick Brychek]

Dear Mr. Bighunter 43, and Fellow JFK Forum Members:Sir, I apologize for hastily reading your Post. I will correct my language. This is a prime example of why I usually wait and respond in a more reflective mood.Thank You, again Sir, for your professional and personable attitude. It is noticed and appreciated.One additional point. Read Wim's research that JFK'S face had to be filled with clay and wax by the mortician to fill in OTHER EXIT WOUNDS IN HIS FACE. I feel that this is further substantiation of my position.Comments ?Respectfully,Bruce Patrick Brychek.

[Bighunter43]

No problem Bruce! Like Wim said, when you believe in one thing for so long, its hard to change your way of thinking! I'm OPEN to ALL possibilites....I always bought the frontal throat shot because it totally disproved the rear 3 shot lone assassin scenario! (and because of the Parkland doctors and earlier researchers like Bob Groden).........In addition, the admission of SS Agents Dave Powers and Kenneth O'Donnell to Tip O'Neal that they saw shot(s) coming from the knoll, and felt they were riding into an ambush......that also has led me to think about the frontal throat shot. I had always believed that the throat shot was before Kennedy comes out from behind the sign, and I have NEVER thought it went thru the window! I have never seen a photo of a bullet hole THROUGH the window. And, the Altgens photo has JFK already hit, and there is NO damage to the window! Bob, I haven't read Inside the ARB but I'm going to get it. As for as the bullet not exiting, IF it was a small caliber, say .22 for example, maybe it hit spine and didn't exit. Might explain why the throat wound was enlarged to find the bullet and get it out before the official autopsy...........truth is I DON"T KNOW and now I've got to get the IARB book and check out Thom Robinson. Just glad we got researchers like ya'll to keep looking at all the "angles!" The best part of it all is the discussion......

[Davyjones]

Why use a small caliber bullet when the objective was to kill?

[Dealey Joe]

Example... John Connolly hit with a large heavy bullet JFK hit with a smaller calibre light weight bullet Slower large grain bullet to the head could kill but there would be a hole all the way thru and on out the back. Faster small grain bullet would be explosive and do the damage that was done to JKF's head.