Keeping an eye on the windshield

[Bob]

Excellent post Kit. Still, put me in the group that believes it was a crack in the windshield and not a through and through hole. Secondly, Bill Greer was part of the conspiracy in my opinion, as were Roy Kellerman and Emory Roberts. I never had any doubts aboiut Roberts, after he waved off the two men in the Secret Service who would have been behind JFK's limo at Love Field. I also had doubts about Greer and Kellerman, but my belief that they were involved was cemented after reading Doug Horne's book. Again, in JFK's motorcade in Tampa, shortly before the trip to Dallas, there were two Secret Service guys on the rear of JFK's limo. This would be key information, because a shot from the rear would be very difficult in Dealey Plaza if both Secret Service guys were on the back of the limo. But by NOT being on the back of the limo, this scenario would allow Chuck Nicoletti and anyone else (Mac Wallace?) to shoot from the rear in Dealey Plaza. That would also mean that certain Secret Service were involved in this conspiracy. Now in terms of Billy's post, I have to take exception to it. Not because I believe there was NO through and through hole in the windshield, but because of the condescending tone he took with Joe. I consider Billy a friend, but his attack on Joe was uncalled for. Joe is also a friend of mine. A good friend. There are ways to debate this issue respectfully and than there are ways to be disrespectful in stating one's arguement. Billy choose the latter. I expect better from Billy.

[kenmurray]

Here is what Bob mentioned about JFK's motorcade in Tampa. Plus in other cities too. Notice better security there:http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/v ... a13.htmThe strange actions (and inaction) of Agent Emory Roberts:http://www.jfklink.com/articles/EmoryRoberts.html

[Kit Carp]

I'm with you on Roberts, Kellerman and Greer, Bob. I'm not judging the statements, just reportin' what they claimed. There isnt reasonable a conclusion to reach, I dont think...is what I'm saying, based on the available evidence. A person can reach any conclusion they like, simply by choosing the preferred witness they need to support their pre-ordained conclusion. This tends to render the windshield utterly useless for supporting anything!A cynic would tend to want to lean towards whatever pointed towards Oswald's guilt as being phony, I guess. But, in this case, the windshield evidence tends to vary wildly. There seems to have been a windshield with a through and through hole, one with a strike that didnt penetrate from the front, and a strike that didnt penetrate from the rear, depending entirely upon when you looked at the windshield in question.Obviously, one strike cant account for all these variable results. To me, this tends to support nothing except alteration, when you combine it with all the other provable evidence tampering in the case. Personally, (just a guess), I think there might have been a through and through hole, (I have no opinion on direction) ,and the Secret Service conspirators had a handy extra windshield, but cracked it so that you could feel the glass on the inside, not realizing that indicated a hit from the front, and were forced to replace it again for the record in a bumbling fashion for one you could feel on the outside, to implicate Oswald having caused the damage. This would explain Kellerman's flip-flopping around with his "..it feels quite smooth today" idiocy.Certainly cant begin to prove that, though.It's a pity there isnt a really, really great picture extant of that crack or hole during the assassination. This means the actual state of the windshield will probably forever be irrevocably unknown.The WH garage photos, of course, could have been taken at any time. The other photos/movies are too fuzzy to tell, IMHO.

[steve manning]

I'm an historian as are many or perhaps most of you. Obviously, when it comes to truly understanding history, all of us have one major disadvantage in common; we're usually not personally present when history is made. Therefore, if we desire to understand the truthful reality of what actually happened (as most historians do), we obviously have to reconstruct the scene. You don't have to be a historian to know that an eye witness can play a pivotal role in reconstructing a historical event. The aspect of eye witness testimony lesser understood (in terms of credibility and believability), is that eye witnesses can also be ranked according to their proximity to the event in time. One of the reasons I've always had a tendency to believe there was a hole in the windshield is because of the significant testimony obtained from people at the hospital, just 10-20 minutes after the shooting. Again, I believe this goes largely unnoticed and should not be the case. This is why the description of the head wound from the doctors and nurses is so important and credible. Just 12-15 minutes after the shooting! Therefore, the reports of what was supposedly witnessed by the secret service in the WH garage are significantly less credible just in terms of proximity. Now if those reports did not contradict the early testimony, that would have represented serious corroboration. Now of course there were some later reports that did corroborate the earlier testimony (thereby strengthening the earlier testimony). The Gil Jesus link goes into some detail of the man who worked fairly high up in the Ford Motor Co. in Michigan (I believe) who even penned a written statement before he died. Doug Weldon has done an amazing job reconstructing the scene at the hospital and tracking down the witnesses to the hole and what was being said by a few secret service agents to some of the people standing around the limo at the hospital...if you don't think the people standing around the limo were looking all over for gun shots you should probably look into it a little further? Secret Service agents who apparently told a few by standers "those were not bullet holes" to some who mentioned what they saw with there own eyes. Again this is just a few minutes after everything went down. This evidence demands much more respect than it has been getting. I'll get the links and post them a little later, but if you're interested before that, look up Doug Weldon Parts 1-16 on you tube...he did a fantastic job. Where are the truthseekers? Are we trying to reconstruct the event as it happened or are we all a bunch of Wim(p)s? Good man but I think he needs to reevaluate his position on this (again). Just Kidding, Lighten up everyone,Steve

[steve manning]

As I said in an earlier post on this very issue, anyone can see the logic of waiting to the last possible moment to take any shot from the front; but clearly, by this time they (particularly the Mob) were more than ready to take a shot from the front if that's what it took to finally get the job done. They were ready enough to plant at least one shooter (Files) in the front...I sense fatigue from just "planning" to kill this guy...Florida, Chicago, etc., he simply had to go this time. The traditional home stretch of the reelection campaign was right around the corner and they would never have a better opportunity to finally get it done than Dallas Texas, on November 22, 1963. In 5 more weeks the typical election media coverage would kick in, and JFK wouldn't be able to use the toilet without triggering an AP report. They need to get rid of this guy while the light on him is relatively dim; and as stated earlier, there would never again be a greater opportunity to finally get rid of him. It had even stopped raining that morning, allowing them to remove the bubble top from the limo.In addition to all this, was the last minute rumor of the alleged "CIA order," and the ensuing “abort team" which could have triggered a collapse in the original plan of triangulation crossfire, with emphasis behind the target? Perhaps upon hearing about the abort team, a lonely Mob shooter on the south knoll was wondering if he was the only one left in the plaza to do the job? Perhaps any confusion brought about by the rumor or order of an “abort team” convinced such a shooter (on the south knoll) to take any shot he could get just to make sure it got done this time?I can no longer find the link to an adaptation of the Zapruder footage by Gill Jesus, in which he depicted a shot from the south knoll, traversing the windshield of the limo and passing over the left shoulder of Governor Connelly, (right past his left ear)...making him flinch just before it hit JFK in the throat. This was an amazing insight into this possibility! I don't know where the shot would have originated but I would guess from somewhere on the south knoll or possibly the south side of the overpass; either from above or below? We do know of course that Tosh was thinking of something along these lines as well.NOTE: Such a shooter I’m sure would not have been aiming at JFK’s throat. Perhaps the only shot he had (from wherever he would have been) was through the windshield? You would think such a shot would have been aimed right between his eyes instead of the Windsor knot of his necktie? No I haven’t done any tests, but at this point, I would be willing to bet the slant of the windshield could have dropped the trajectory of the shot; especially from that distance, even though it was probably less than 200 yards.Back to where we started, I hate to sound like a broken record, but I’m a reasonable guy…in terms of simple likelihood, what am I overlooking here? Please help me specifically rule this out? Yes it made good sense to avoid taking a shot from the front but in the end, did they really care if they took it? They put Files on the knoll. Again, he simply had to go this time.In addition to all this is the evidence of the hole in the windshield. Where is the specific refutation of this? Again, Gil Jesus did an amazing job of tracking down what happened. I wish I could find it again? I believe it has all been removed? In my estimation, we can’t just throw this key evidence under the bus without specifically ruling out; as opposed to disagreeing with it because we already have another view of the matter already in print.Thanx for reading.Stevesteve manning

[Jerry Craig]

steve i look at all the evidence with an open mind and try to be as optamistic as i can my uncles side is only one there are several sides so i have to be open to all accounts..

[steve manning]

As you should Jerry, which punctuates my point. However, at some point, as we go about the business of considering all the evidence available, we will ultimately have to make judgement calls that leads to the "ruling out" of a piece or two of so called evidence that we've now come to realize, does not fit the picture, big or small. Again, all of which we wouldn't even know, had we not weighed it to begin with, and compared it to the strength of earlier and yet even more uniform testimony occurring right after the event. Again, this evidence by it's nature is more credible.I'm really referring to the science of hermeneutics; that is the science of interpreting ancient documents, and many such documents which describe narrative type events, as the bible and various other archeological discoveries. So the job wouldn't be any where near complete without careful consideration of all available evidence. The systematic science of hermeneutics helps us rank the credibility and believability of every piece of evidence scientifically and consistently; increasing the likely-hood of accuracy.Hope that helps you at least understand what I'm trying to say,thanx for readingSteve

[Jerry Craig]

i understand what you are saying

[Billy Boggs]

First off,I'm not here to make friends. Second, I'm mad as hell, not condescending! I am sick and tire of crap being presented as evidence to be considered. Yes, I have wasted a good deal of time tracking it down and considering it! Joe can do his own talking, and he can start by WATCHING the video I presented. The driver did it, a purple alien from Jupiter, AND A PICTURE OF A CRACK IN A WINDSHIELD WITH NO CONTEXT!Now, all the first hand testimony about the bullet that entered the windshield, FROM THE FRONT, is contained in a A & E special that aired in 2003, gave it all. Conveniently, you tube has seen it fit to ban and remove all copies of the revelant portions due to "Copy Right" issues. Hog wash.I present two of the segments here and I claim FAIR USE! Watch them before they are gone and decide for yourselves. And Bob, if you decide for any reason not to watch them, you can take me off your friends list. Same for you, Wim!http://s534.photobucket.com/albums/ee34 ... mp4Picture showing bullet hole in windshield. You will note that the driver and front seat passenger are sitting in their seats to the extreme outsides. Both of them are pushed up to the door pillars to allow the bullet to pass by them safely.Picture of Kennedy's neck from the front showing the round bullet entrance hole dissected by the tracheotomy A schematic showing the presidential limo and the trajectory through the vehicle, which also points to the point of origin. Location under the viaduct where that line though the limo lines up toPhoto of Dealy Plaza from above without the line of travel. Put the car where it was just before the sign, draw the line thought the car, and it points to were I have suggested.Do not answer me unless you view the videos, I will not answer. Again, I am not a professional, I am a private amateur/ investigator/ researcher, I'm mad as hell, not condescending! I'm sick and tired of people that pick and choose what they will look at and what they will not. I have had to look at it all, do yourself the favor, and do the same.

[Bob]

Billy Boggs wrote:First off,I'm not here to make friends. Second, I'm mad as hell, not condescending! I am sick and tire of crap being presented as evidence to be considered. Yes, I have wasted a good deal of time tracking it down and considering it! Joe can do his own talking, and he can start by WATCHING the video I presented. The driver did it, a purple alien from Jupiter, AND A PICTURE OF A CRACK IN A WINDSHIELD WITH NO CONTEXT!Now, all the first hand testimony about the bullet that entered the windshield, FROM THE FRONT, is contained in a A & E special that aired in 2003, gave it all. Conveniently, you tube has seen it fit to ban and remove all copies of the revelant portions due to "Copy Right" issues. Hog wash.I present two of the segments here and I claim FAIR USE! Watch them before they are gone and decide for yourselves. And Bob, if you decide for any reason not to watch them, you can take me off your friends list. Same for you, Wim!http://s534.photobucket.com/albums/ee34 ... mp4Picture showing bullet hole in windshield. You will note that the driver and front seat passenger are sitting in their seats to the extreme outsides. Both of them are pushed up to the door pillars to allow the bullet to pass by them safely.Picture of Kennedy's neck from the front showing the round bullet entrance hole dissected by the tracheotomy A schematic showing the presidential limo and the trajectory through the vehicle, which also points to the point of origin. Location under the viaduct where that line though the limo lines up toPhoto of Dealy Plaza from above without the line of travel. Put the car where it was just before the sign, draw the line thought the car, and it points to were I have suggested.Do not answer me unless you view the videos, I will not answer. Again, I am not a professional, I am a private amateur/ investigator/ researcher, I'm mad as hell, not condescending! I'm sick and tired of people that pick and choose what they will look at and what they will not. I have had to look at it all, do yourself the favor, and do the same.Billy, first off, I certainly can appreciate your passion about this subject. That's fine. But that is no reason to belittle another person's posts. That is all I'm saying.I watched the videos, which I have seen before. In the first vid, I agree 100% about the Secret Service involvement in the assassination. I also have a lot of respect for Charles Crenshaw, the doctor from Parkland that said JFK's neck wound was one of entrance. He said there was no tissue tearing, and that is why it had to be an entrance wound. However, if tiny fragments from JFK's head wound from mercury round shot by Jimmy Files came out of the neck, they would also not cause tissue tearing. That is what Thom Robinson said as he watched both the pre-autopsy procedure and the actual autopsy procedure at Bethesda. Robinson said that when doctors tracked JFK's head wound, they found an exit area by the throat as well as the exit area from behind. Robinson said he also saw tiny fragments coming out of JFK's face.The second vid gives a lot of credence to the bullet hole in the windshield. I have no doubt that a bullet did hit the windshield. Absolutely NO doubt. Let's say a bullet did go through the windshield and hit JFK in the throat. Where did the bullet exit than? The neck area is soft tissue. If it hit the spine, than why was JFK able to lift his arms? Why was JFK able to speak after the shot as Roy Kellerman testified?Bottom line, your arguement about the windshield and the throat wound has plenty of ammunition (no pun intended). But I also think my arguement has plenty as well. That is what debate is all about.