Wim: I added a few points in red
I was wondering what views people may have.
Either Oswald was a marxist and just pretending to be anti-Castro to infiltrate right-wing groups prior to defecting to Cuba or he changed his political ideology after his time in the USSR and pretended to be pro-Castro to identify Castro sympathisers for the CIA.
Anti-Castro
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1. Had a relationship with Judyth Baker who was part of a plot to kill Castro.
2. Anna Lewis heard him plotting to shoot Castro.
3. Worked at Reily Coffee Company, a company with anti-Castro links.
4. Associated with Guy Bannister, David Ferrie, Dr. Ochsner and other prominent anti-Castro people in New Orleans.
5. Volunteered to transport Castro virus from Mexico to Cuba.
6. Associated with anti-Communist Russian community in Dallas including George de Mohrenschildt.
7. Defected to USSR but didn't like it and soon returned to USA.
8. Had David Phillips as CIA controller9. Associated with Clay Shaw
Pro-Castro
------------
1. Claimed on many occasions to be a Marxist.
2. Defected to the USSR and married a Russian - didn't think USSR was real marxism.
3. Organised New Orleans branch of Fair Play For Cuba.
4. Arrested for disturbance with anti-Castro Cubans whilst handing out FPFC propaganda.
5. Was taped in a radio debate promoting FPFC and pro-Castro views.
6. Known to listen to Cuban radio on shortwave.
7. Known to read communist magazines e.g. The Worker, Krokodil
8. Prior to Kennedy assassination applied for visa to Cuba and USSR.
9. After being caught refused legal representation from Dallas bar. Demanded John Abt in New York to represent him, a known communist sympathiser.
So which is the real Oswald?
Lee Harvey Oswald - Pro-Castro or Anti-Castro
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Simon West
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Your answer can be found on # 7 on your Anti-Castro list... Defected to USSR but didn't like it and soon returned to USA. Let's be real. Oswald was in the LCAP in New Orleans. It was a breeding ground for recruiting CIA agents. Oswald was taught Russian in the Marines. He was assigned to a top secret base that the U-2 flew out of. Then, while he "defected" to the Soviets, a U.S. U-2 plane is shot down over Soviet air space. Then Oswald returns to the U.S. Was Oswald questioned? Was he arrested as a traitor? No! He was used like a chess piece in the game of intelligence. He was set up. He was what he said he was..."a patsy". I believe Oswald was a patriotic American that thought he was infiltrating an organization that was planning on assassinating a President. The FBI was warned about this just before the assassination. Oswald told Hosty that the hit was going to go down soon. Bottom line, Lee Harvey Oswald needs to have his name cleared and the REAL perpetrators of this crime MUST come to justice. Are you listening Poppy Bu$h? How about you Arlen Spector? Jerry Ford? Traitors all!!!
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Simon West
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Bob wrote:Your answer can be found on # 7 on your Anti-Castro list... Defected to USSR but didn't like it and soon returned to USA. Let's be real. Oswald was in the LCAP in New Orleans. It was a breeding ground for recruiting CIA agents.For anti-Castro agents.Bob wrote:Oswald was taught Russian in the Marines.He taught himself Russian and asked for a written examination.Bob wrote:He was assigned to a top secret base that the U-2 flew out of. Then, while he "defected" to the Soviets, a U.S. U-2 plane is shot down over Soviet air space.Coincidence? Bob wrote:Then Oswald returns to the U.S.He wanted to study at university but the authorities sent him to work at a factory. The KGB after monitoring him for nearly 3 years did not believe he was an agent and let him go.Bob wrote:Was Oswald questioned? Was he arrested as a traitor? No! He was used like a chess piece in the game of intelligence.This is definitely true. He was being monitored by the CIA and FBI. The FBI I believe used him to infiltrate right-wing groups and the CIA were monitoring his pro-Castro activities. As usual their incompetance and rivalry stopped the CIA and FBI exchanging information between the organisations and local police and Oswald was able to play them off against each other.Bob wrote:I believe Oswald was a patriotic American that thought he was infiltrating an organization that was planning on assassinating a President.That's what he led the FBI to believe. He was a known wife beater, someone able to live two convincing personas at the same time, someone who attempted an assassination of General Edwin Walker, a violent, manipulative, delusional, militant leftist.Bob wrote:The FBI was warned about this just before the assassination. Oswald told Hosty that the hit was going to go down soon.Oswald again was playing Hosty. That's why Hosty was ordered to destroy his notes. That's why he lied to the Warren Commission. He was incompetent. Oswald played him for a fool. Hosty didn't share what he knew with the Dallas police or consult the CIA. He thought it was going to be a right wing hit. When they realised their mistakes the FBI covered their tracks and the CIA, who didn't want all their anti-Castro scheming becoming public knowledge, buried what they knew as well.Bob wrote:Bottom line, Lee Harvey Oswald needs to have his name cleared and the REAL perpetrators of this crime MUST come to justice.
Bottom line. Oswald was a much more complex person than anyone who met him believed at the time. He outsmarted the FBI, the CIA, right-wing extremists and the mafia. He was determined to make his mark and then re-defect to Cuba and then on to the Soviet Union a hero. He could then take his rightful place at the table with leaders, not just working for the rest of his life in some factory with the proletariat. He saw his chance and he took it. He believed that all the evidence pointed towards a right-wing conspiracy, which is exactly what Hosty first thought until Oswald was captured. In fact, Oswald was only captured thanks to a member of the public who followed him to the movie theatre and got the ticket collector to call the police. Otherwise he'd have been out of there, on a bus to Mexico and then to Cuba where he'd give his debreifing on all the info he had on the anti-Castro activities he'd been party to and then on to the Soviet Union to what he believed would be a hero's welcome. He'd already got his visas sorted out ready to go. Fact.
The whole conspiracy movement was born out of the actions of people like Hosty, Gordon Shanklin and Richard Helms, people who messed up big time and sought to hide their roles in allowing the assassination to occur.
I think that when it comes to the crunch a man's real character is determined by his actions when he's backed into a corner, and Oswald's insistance that he should be represented by John Abt is the clincher. John Abt was a communist lawyer who had been influential in overturning the Smith Act. The Smith Act was primarily an anti-communist piece of legislation that made it a crimnal offense to "knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the duty, necessity, desirability or propriety of overthrowing the Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches, advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association"
Oswald made several attempts to call John Abt himself, told the Dallas police he wanted Abt, asked Ruth Paine to call Abt, told president of the Dallas Bar Association H. Louis Nichols that he wanted Abt.
This one inescapable fact firmly nails Oswald's sail to the pro-Castro, pro-marxist mast. As a lawyer who had successfully beaten legislation that made it a crime to overthrow the government by force, Oswald knew that only John Abt could save him. It speaks volumes about Oswald's guilt in killing Kennedy and how he planned to defend himself in that it was his constitutional right to bring down the government by force.
That in fact Oswald killed one of the most progressive Presidents of modern times and that his actions have done nothing but accelerate the shift ever further to the right in US politics and bring ever more isolation and persecution of Cuba is the saddest irony. Ultimately, the 'lone nut' assessment of Oswald could not be more true.
Bottom line. Oswald was a much more complex person than anyone who met him believed at the time. He outsmarted the FBI, the CIA, right-wing extremists and the mafia. He was determined to make his mark and then re-defect to Cuba and then on to the Soviet Union a hero. He could then take his rightful place at the table with leaders, not just working for the rest of his life in some factory with the proletariat. He saw his chance and he took it. He believed that all the evidence pointed towards a right-wing conspiracy, which is exactly what Hosty first thought until Oswald was captured. In fact, Oswald was only captured thanks to a member of the public who followed him to the movie theatre and got the ticket collector to call the police. Otherwise he'd have been out of there, on a bus to Mexico and then to Cuba where he'd give his debreifing on all the info he had on the anti-Castro activities he'd been party to and then on to the Soviet Union to what he believed would be a hero's welcome. He'd already got his visas sorted out ready to go. Fact.
The whole conspiracy movement was born out of the actions of people like Hosty, Gordon Shanklin and Richard Helms, people who messed up big time and sought to hide their roles in allowing the assassination to occur.
I think that when it comes to the crunch a man's real character is determined by his actions when he's backed into a corner, and Oswald's insistance that he should be represented by John Abt is the clincher. John Abt was a communist lawyer who had been influential in overturning the Smith Act. The Smith Act was primarily an anti-communist piece of legislation that made it a crimnal offense to "knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise or teach the duty, necessity, desirability or propriety of overthrowing the Government of the United States or of any State by force or violence, or for anyone to organize any association which teaches, advises or encourages such an overthrow, or for anyone to become a member of or to affiliate with any such association"
Oswald made several attempts to call John Abt himself, told the Dallas police he wanted Abt, asked Ruth Paine to call Abt, told president of the Dallas Bar Association H. Louis Nichols that he wanted Abt.
This one inescapable fact firmly nails Oswald's sail to the pro-Castro, pro-marxist mast. As a lawyer who had successfully beaten legislation that made it a crime to overthrow the government by force, Oswald knew that only John Abt could save him. It speaks volumes about Oswald's guilt in killing Kennedy and how he planned to defend himself in that it was his constitutional right to bring down the government by force.
That in fact Oswald killed one of the most progressive Presidents of modern times and that his actions have done nothing but accelerate the shift ever further to the right in US politics and bring ever more isolation and persecution of Cuba is the saddest irony. Ultimately, the 'lone nut' assessment of Oswald could not be more true.
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john geraghty
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
He taught himself Russian and asked for a written examinationSource please.He outsmarted the FBI, the CIA, right-wing extremists and the mafia? They call it the central INTELLIGENCE agency for a reason. He was determined to make his mark and then re-defect to Cuba and then on to the Soviet Union a heroThis is theory and opinion. Tell me when Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to flee to Cuba after the assassination.Otherwise he'd have been out of there, on a bus to Mexico and then to Cuba where he'd give his debreifing on all the info he had on the anti-Castro activities he'd been party to and then on to the Soviet Union to what he believed would be a hero's welcome. He'd already got his visas sorted out ready to go. Fact. Fact...no assumption. perhaps you would care to provide his visa or a document stating that he obtained a visa?The whole conspiracy movement was born out of the actions of people like Hosty, Gordon Shanklin and Richard Helms, people who messed up big time and sought to hide their roles in allowing the assassination to occur.
I think that the exposing of the use of Oswald to infiltrate right wing organisations would have been small fry in comparison with exposing a communist plot. Dick Helms was no idiot, nor was he one to back down. (Check out Watergate)
All in all yours was a post rife with speculation. Something that we do not need. If there was constructive criticism contained therein it would not be so bad. These are your opinions and without elaboration I'm afraid they fall down. Predicting what Oswald 'would' have done after the assassination, as any historian will tell you' is simply bad research and interpretation.
I don't know you Simon, but I suggest that you present a stronger argument in the future. If you present facts, all well and good, if you present theories, you will not be able to prove them.
John
I think that the exposing of the use of Oswald to infiltrate right wing organisations would have been small fry in comparison with exposing a communist plot. Dick Helms was no idiot, nor was he one to back down. (Check out Watergate)
All in all yours was a post rife with speculation. Something that we do not need. If there was constructive criticism contained therein it would not be so bad. These are your opinions and without elaboration I'm afraid they fall down. Predicting what Oswald 'would' have done after the assassination, as any historian will tell you' is simply bad research and interpretation.
I don't know you Simon, but I suggest that you present a stronger argument in the future. If you present facts, all well and good, if you present theories, you will not be able to prove them.
John
Simon West,
Just curious:
Since when do you have an interest in the assassination?
Which books have you read?
Have you discussed the topic before on other forums?
If not, what peaked your interest to choose this one?
Wim
So which is the real Oswald?
The real Oswald was an anti-Castro CIA agent with a pro-Castro cover, carefully crafted by his superiors.
Just curious:
Since when do you have an interest in the assassination?
Which books have you read?
Have you discussed the topic before on other forums?
If not, what peaked your interest to choose this one?
Wim
So which is the real Oswald?
The real Oswald was an anti-Castro CIA agent with a pro-Castro cover, carefully crafted by his superiors.
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Simon West
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
1. Since when do you have an interest in the assassination?2. Which books have you read?3. Have you discussed the topic before on other forums?4. If not, what peaked your interest to choose this one?
1. Only a few weeks ago... obviously I've seen Oliver Stones JFK and have harboured a feeling that the whole truth has never been made public.
2. None. Internet only.
3. No. Only in a general sense political debate forum. Nothing in-depth.
4. I support Hugo Chavez and saw your posts on vheadline.com
1. Only a few weeks ago... obviously I've seen Oliver Stones JFK and have harboured a feeling that the whole truth has never been made public.
2. None. Internet only.
3. No. Only in a general sense political debate forum. Nothing in-depth.
4. I support Hugo Chavez and saw your posts on vheadline.com
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Simon West
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
john geraghty wrote:1. He taught himself Russian and asked for a written examinationSource please.2. He outsmarted the FBI, the CIA, right-wing extremists and the mafia? They call it the central INTELLIGENCE agency for a reason. 3. He was determined to make his mark and then re-defect to Cuba and then on to the Soviet Union a heroThis is theory and opinion. Tell me when Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to flee to Cuba after the assassination.4. Otherwise he'd have been out of there, on a bus to Mexico and then to Cuba where he'd give his debreifing on all the info he had on the anti-Castro activities he'd been party to and then on to the Soviet Union to what he believed would be a hero's welcome. He'd already got his visas sorted out ready to go. Fact. Fact...no assumption. perhaps you would care to provide his visa or a document stating that he obtained a visa?The whole conspiracy movement was born out of the actions of people like Hosty, Gordon Shanklin and Richard Helms, people who messed up big time and sought to hide their roles in allowing the assassination to occur. I think that the exposing of the use of Oswald to infiltrate right wing organisations would have been small fry in comparison with exposing a communist plot. Dick Helms was no idiot, nor was he one to back down. (Check out Watergate)All in all yours was a post rife with speculation. Something that we do not need. If there was constructive criticism contained therein it would not be so bad. These are your opinions and without elaboration I'm afraid they fall down. Predicting what Oswald 'would' have done after the assassination, as any historian will tell you' is simply bad research and interpretation.I don't know you Simon, but I suggest that you present a stronger argument in the future. If you present facts, all well and good, if you present theories, you will not be able to prove them.John
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald , http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_ ... jfk/7.html , http://www.answers.com/topic/lee-harvey-oswald , http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html
2. Are you suggesting that the CIA are in fact intelligent? They're good at giving money to dangerous people who do their dirty work for them.
3. Judyth Baker says Oswald went to Mexico with a view to delivering the monkey virus to a Cuban student to take over to Cuba. In fact whilst in Mexico Oswald spent 5 days to-ing and fro-ing from the Russian and Cuban embassies getting his visas sorted out. There is some confusion about the exact events in those 5 days, hardly surprising since the witnesses are Cuban and Russian embassy workers who have their own loyalties, but regardless Oswald's cuban visa was issued on 18th October 1963. All he had to do was pick up his visa and go. He'd get the Russian one once safely in Cuba.
4. Yep. The visa for cuba was issued 18th October, fact. Oswald knew the FBI would be looking at the right-wingers and anti-Castro Cubans he had helped implicate. Hosty admitted as much. All he had to do was make it to Mexico and he'd be gone.
18th October claim - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ald/forum/
Listen, the turning point in this investigation was for me finding out that Oswald asked for John Abt as his lawyer, refusing all others except someone from the American Civil Rights Union if Abt refused. These are not the actions of a patsy or indeed someone allied with a right wing conspiracy or indeed a completely innocent member of the public. These are the actions of a politically motivated assassin.
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald , http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_ ... jfk/7.html , http://www.answers.com/topic/lee-harvey-oswald , http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html
2. Are you suggesting that the CIA are in fact intelligent? They're good at giving money to dangerous people who do their dirty work for them.
3. Judyth Baker says Oswald went to Mexico with a view to delivering the monkey virus to a Cuban student to take over to Cuba. In fact whilst in Mexico Oswald spent 5 days to-ing and fro-ing from the Russian and Cuban embassies getting his visas sorted out. There is some confusion about the exact events in those 5 days, hardly surprising since the witnesses are Cuban and Russian embassy workers who have their own loyalties, but regardless Oswald's cuban visa was issued on 18th October 1963. All he had to do was pick up his visa and go. He'd get the Russian one once safely in Cuba.
4. Yep. The visa for cuba was issued 18th October, fact. Oswald knew the FBI would be looking at the right-wingers and anti-Castro Cubans he had helped implicate. Hosty admitted as much. All he had to do was make it to Mexico and he'd be gone.
18th October claim - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ald/forum/
Listen, the turning point in this investigation was for me finding out that Oswald asked for John Abt as his lawyer, refusing all others except someone from the American Civil Rights Union if Abt refused. These are not the actions of a patsy or indeed someone allied with a right wing conspiracy or indeed a completely innocent member of the public. These are the actions of a politically motivated assassin.
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Simon West
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Dick Helms was no idiot, nor was he one to back down. (Check out Watergate)
"C.I.A. Deputy Director of Plans Richard Helms blocked Whitten's efforts, effectively ending any hope of a comprehensive agency investigation of the accused assassin, a 24-year-old ex-Marine, who had sojourned in the Soviet Union and spent time as a leftist activist in New Orleans."
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/featur ... orley.html
"Accounting for Oswald’s Cuba-related activities proved especially difficult, he testified. In early December 1963 Whitten was writing up what he had gleaned from CIA files, when he was invited to the White House for a look at the FBI’s preliminary report on Oswald. Reading the report, Whitten was shocked. The FBI had all sorts of information about Oswald that had never been given to him. Whitten went back to his office realizing that deputy director Dick Helms and counterintelligence chief James Angleton had been withholding “vital informationâ€
"C.I.A. Deputy Director of Plans Richard Helms blocked Whitten's efforts, effectively ending any hope of a comprehensive agency investigation of the accused assassin, a 24-year-old ex-Marine, who had sojourned in the Soviet Union and spent time as a leftist activist in New Orleans."
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/featur ... orley.html
"Accounting for Oswald’s Cuba-related activities proved especially difficult, he testified. In early December 1963 Whitten was writing up what he had gleaned from CIA files, when he was invited to the White House for a look at the FBI’s preliminary report on Oswald. Reading the report, Whitten was shocked. The FBI had all sorts of information about Oswald that had never been given to him. Whitten went back to his office realizing that deputy director Dick Helms and counterintelligence chief James Angleton had been withholding “vital informationâ€
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Jim Thompson
- Posts: 226
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
The Old Chelonian Ploy
Simon West wrote:2. Which books have you read?3. Have you discussed the topic before on other forums? 2. None. Internet only.3. No. Only in a general sense on a Dr. Who forum.
I noticed that a position was advanced recently on a Dr. Who forum that Oswald was a transmogrified Chelonian operating as a CIA asset. I find this a bit far fetched. And possibly an essay in not so subtle disinformation. Why? According to Dr. Who archives recently released (1993) via a FOIA request:
"The Chelonians are a race of cybernetic humanoid tortoises. They are hermaphroditic and lay eggs. Some of their cybernetic enhancements include X-ray vision and improved hearing. Chelonians consider humans to be parasites and often try to eliminate them." - CIA doc. 34-a267, pp 8
The implication is that Oswald (a disguised Chelonian assassin) considered JFK a parasite who needed elimination. Smart? Not!
If Simon West really believes this nonsense, then I suggest that he take a closer look at the evidence. A good place to start is: read a book.
Jim
I noticed that a position was advanced recently on a Dr. Who forum that Oswald was a transmogrified Chelonian operating as a CIA asset. I find this a bit far fetched. And possibly an essay in not so subtle disinformation. Why? According to Dr. Who archives recently released (1993) via a FOIA request:
"The Chelonians are a race of cybernetic humanoid tortoises. They are hermaphroditic and lay eggs. Some of their cybernetic enhancements include X-ray vision and improved hearing. Chelonians consider humans to be parasites and often try to eliminate them." - CIA doc. 34-a267, pp 8
The implication is that Oswald (a disguised Chelonian assassin) considered JFK a parasite who needed elimination. Smart? Not!
If Simon West really believes this nonsense, then I suggest that he take a closer look at the evidence. A good place to start is: read a book.
Jim
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Simon West
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Dr. Who
I don't believe that there is a Dr. Who - Oswald connection, because Dr. Who is fiction. I don't even like Dr. Who that much.
What is not fiction is that Richard Helms covered up what the CIA knew about Oswald in relation to their anti-Castro activities. See above.
I don't believe that there is a Dr. Who - Oswald connection, because Dr. Who is fiction. I don't even like Dr. Who that much.
What is not fiction is that Richard Helms covered up what the CIA knew about Oswald in relation to their anti-Castro activities. See above.