Lee Harvey Oswald - Pro-Castro or Anti-Castro

[Jim Thompson]

Simon West wrote:I don't believe that there is a Dr. Who - Oswald connection, because Dr. Who is fiction.

Statements that do not meet the requirements of the positivist verification principle, e.g. statements such as "The Absolute enters into, but is itself incapable of, evolution.", or "Dr. Who is fiction.", are commonly found as conclusions derived from JKF research. Helms knew this. Consequently, it was for him a snap &, indeed, an indicated prima facie procedural step to hide everything from everybody. Why not? Who then would know? Dr. Who?

Jim

[Simon West]

The point is that the gaping holes in the Warren Commission are there because of the actions of Helms and also Hosty who lied to the commission and destroyed evidence.

Once you put that infomation back in, thanks to the testimonies of John Whitten and Jane Roman, Hosty's admission of lying and indeed Judyth Baker's relationship with Oswald which suddenly connects the missing dots, those once gaping holes are filled almost completely. The conspiracy to kill Kennedy is proved non-existant. The only conspiracies were by those in the CIA and FBI like Helms and Hosty in order to save their jobs.

[Jim Thompson]

Simon West wrote: The conspiracy to kill Kennedy is proved non-existant. The only conspiracies were by those in the CIA and FBI like Helms and Hosty in order to save their jobs.

What is proved? What is proved is this: Simon West is part of a conspiracy to prove that Oswald acted alone. I call this conspiracy the "The Dr. Who Donit?" consipacy.

Jim

[john geraghty]

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald , http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_ ... jfk/7.html , http://www.answers.com/topic/lee-harvey-oswald , http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html 2. Are you suggesting that the CIA are in fact intelligent? They're good at giving money to dangerous people who do their dirty work for them. 3. Judyth Baker says Oswald went to Mexico with a view to delivering the monkey virus to a Cuban student to take over to Cuba. In fact whilst in Mexico Oswald spent 5 days to-ing and fro-ing from the Russian and Cuban embassies getting his visas sorted out. There is some confusion about the exact events in those 5 days, hardly surprising since the witnesses are Cuban and Russian embassy workers who have their own loyalties, but regardless Oswald's cuban visa was issued on 18th October 1963. All he had to do was pick up his visa and go. He'd get the Russian one once safely in Cuba. 4. Yep. The visa for cuba was issued 18th October, fact. Oswald knew the FBI would be looking at the right-wingers and anti-Castro Cubans he had helped implicate. Hosty admitted as much. All he had to do was make it to Mexico and he'd be gone. 18th October claim - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ald/forum/ Listen, the turning point in this investigation was for me finding out that Oswald asked for John Abt as his lawyer, refusing all others except someone from the American Civil Rights Union if Abt refused. These are not the actions of a patsy or indeed someone allied with a right wing conspiracy or indeed a completely innocent member of the public. These are the actions of a politically motivated assassin

Hello Simon,
On the links you provide I can't find anywhere that said that Oswald asked for a Russian exam.
Yes I am saying that the CIA are intelligent. I agree that they hire very dangerous people, but it is they who concot these various operations and gather information.
On the link provided for the 18th of October claim you may see the exact phrase
"He lived in a cheap rooming house, separated from his family, harassed by the FBI, denied a visa to Cuba" by Don Delillo
Gerald Posner seconds this by saying "Over several months he failed to get a single recruit. Again dejected, he went to Mexico City to convince Cuban officials that he should get a visa to go to Cuba and help the revolution. They rejected him. By the time Oswald returned to Dallas -- where his estranged wife was waiting for him -- in October 1963, he had failed in everything he considered important. "

Being honest I only browsed the articles that you posted due to time restriction and their sheer volume.
Could you please post the exact phrasing you intended me to see from these sites, because as far as I can see the sources are largely irrelevant if they do not prove the claims you have made.

Say what you like about Oswald calling John Abt, that does not place a gun in his hand.

John

[john geraghty]

I don't even like Dr. Who that much.
Theres something we can agree on!
John

[john geraghty]

Hi again Simon,
By chance I found a reference to Oswald requesting a foreign language test.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/parnell/chrono.htm
February 25th: Lee requests a foreign language test in Russian and scores "poor".

However, there is no primary source given for this information, (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, it would be nice to have clarity on the issue)

All the best Simon,
Regards,
John

[Simon West]

john geraghty wrote:[quoteCould you please post the exact phrasing you intended me to see from these sites, because as far as I can see the sources are largely irrelevant if they do not prove the claims you have made.Certainly John:-"However, Lee Oswald wasn't trained in Russian, and his military file discloses no such training. Several of his fellow Marines recalled Oswald teaching himself Russian, and he apparently requested to take a written examination to test his knowledge. The examination is part of Oswald's USMC file, and no attempt was made to conceal it from the Warren Commission. The existence of the exam was voluntarily disclosed to the Commission during the deposition of Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom of the Marine Corps's Personnel Department, Records Branch.""The best evidence that Oswald received no formal training in Russian is the fact that, without exception, those citizens of Russia who encountered Oswald upon his arrival in that country believed him to speak little or no Russian at all.""For example, Rimma Shirakova, the Intourist guide who met Oswald upon his initial arrival in Moscow, believed that Oswald "didn't seem to know a word of Russian," and she had to speak to him in English. Co-workers at Oswald's place of employment in Minsk also believed him to speak little or no Russian when he first arrived there.""Most compelling are the statements of the KGB Counterintelligence general who supervised the task of covertly determining whether Oswald had received precisely that type of training prior to his arrival in the USSR. Interviewed by Norman Mailer in 1993, the KGB man, identified in Mailer by the pseudonym "Igor Ivanovich Guzman," had to "make certain that the Americans had not schooled him [Oswald] in Russian and he was concealing the knowledge. That was difficult to determine, but could be examined by observing closely how he proceeded to acquire more language proficiency. So, that would also become a task for any person teaching him Russian. The monitor would have to be able to determine whether Oswald was jumping from lesson to lesson with suspicious progress, or, taking the contrary case, was he experiencing real difficulty?""Soviet intelligence did not take such tasks lightly. The KGB assumed from the beginning it was possible that an ex-Marine like Oswald could be a US government agent. He was placed under surveillance every time he left home, and his apartment was bugged and monitored. His friends, co-workers and acquaintances were debriefed regularly. KGB agents were planted within his social circle to keep a closer watch. It was the ultimate opinion of his KGB monitors that he had received no training in Russian, nor did he possess any other knowledge or skills to be expected of a spy.""Warren Commission Hearings, Vol. VIII, p. 307. There has been speculation that Oswald attended classes at the Army's Monterey Language School (now the Defense Language Institute), fueled by a statement of Lee Rankin, chief counsel to the Warren Commission, that the Commission was looking into a rumor that Oswald had attended classes at the school. The Commission investigated the matter and concluded that Oswald had not studied there. As author Gerald Posner notes, Monterey was not an intelligence facility, and its records show that Oswald never attended a single class there. (Gerald Posner, Case Closed [New York: Random House, 1993], p. 63"http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.htmlOn the link provided for the 18th of October claim you may see the exact phrase "He lived in a cheap rooming house, separated from his family, harassed by the FBI, denied a visa to Cuba" by Don DelilloGerald Posner seconds this by saying "Over several months he failed to get a single recruit. Again dejected, he went to Mexico City to convince Cuban officials that he should get a visa to go to Cuba and help the revolution. They rejected him. By the time Oswald returned to Dallas -- where his estranged wife was waiting for him -- in October 1963, he had failed in everything he considered important. " When he returned to Dallas he had indeed not yet received his visa. But it was issued nearly 3 weeks later on the 18th. Oswald's 5 days to-ing and fro-ing from the Russian and Cuban embassies certainly caught the eye of the CIA and perhaps Oswald's claims of being persecuted by the FBI were meant to be overheard.Say what you like about Oswald calling John Abt, that does not place a gun in his hand.

No it doesn't prove his guilt but it does make it absolutely clear that Oswald was really very much pro-Castro and not anti-Castro. I mean what kind of right-winger or anti-communist would insist on a prominent communist lawyer, someone he'd not even met or spoken to before but who was famous for defending communists? It's absurd. If Oswald really was anti-Castro he'd have his pick of sympathetic lawyers from the Dallas Bar or friends of his right-wing associates.

Cheers,

Simon

[john geraghty]

Hi Simon,
The fact that Oswald requested John Abt is indeed another piece of the puzzle surrounding this curious young man.
I bought Don Delillos 'Libra' today, I look forward to reading it as it appears to tell Oswalds story as him indeed having been a communist, and that he was later recruited and set up by the CIA, though I'm not positive.
Simon, are familiar with the Kim Philby case? I found Philip Knightleys book 'Philby: KGB masterspy' to be an excellent insight into the world of counter espionage and the mingling of political persuasions with a career in espionage. Philby was indeed a masterspy. Even though his actions caused the deaths of many I can not help but admire him for having a firm belief in a way of life and actin upon those beliefs.

Back to Abt, to be truly honest I can not account for this, nor can most people, as I said, it is another piece of the puzzle.
Having this chat with you makes me want to reread one of my books dealing solely with Oswald and his past.
I must say that I do believe that Oswald was used by the intelligence agencies, but he did display communist tendencies in his youth.

Simon, we have a group in the UK (I'm Irish by the way) called DPUK www.dealeyplazauk.co.uk if your interested in joining. We are mostly believers in a conspiracy, but we don't discriminate. If your interested just email me and I will put you in touch with the secretary Barry Keane.

Good to chat with you and thanks for the quotes.
I promise to do a bit of reading on John Abt and Oswalds past and return to this discussion as I always find myself asking 'who was Lee harvey Oswald'?

All the best,
John

[Jim Thompson]

Simon West wrote:Say what you like about Oswald calling John Abt, that does not place a gun in his hand. No it doesn't prove his guilt but it does make it absolutely clear that Oswald was really very much pro-Castro and not anti-Castro. I mean what kind of right-winger or anti-communist would insist on a prominent communist lawyer, someone he'd not even met or spoken to before but who was famous for defending communists? It's absurd. If Oswald really was anti-Castro he'd have his pick of sympathetic lawyers from the Dallas Bar or friends of his right-wing associates.

LHO's request for Abt was a prearranged ploy to deflect the investigation. By requesting Abt LHO's false facade is maintained: commie lone nut did the deed. LHO was instructed to call for Abt by his handler were Lee captured. LHO was told the lie that if he carried out this ruse he would be assisted by his handler & the powers that be who in reality had planned his soonest demise. So Abt was most apt, as Dr. Who is fond of saying.

See:

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KUDOS TO MR. MARK JOHANSSON:

kUDOS to Mr. Mark Johansson for his support of I SHOT JFK. Obviously, I to support this for anyone seriously trying to research and analyze the assassination of JFK. But for me, killing JFK was only the tip of the iceberg. This is as good as anywhere to begin.

I have known Jimmy for over 30 years, and his story has never changed, nor wavered. Mr. Wim Dankbaar has done his absolute best to maintain the integrity of Jimmy's narration of events. Some of which can absolutely only be known by somebody firing from The Grassy Knoll on November 22, 1963, in Dallas, Texas.

This DVD coupled with Files On JFK, both the DVD, and the book, bring real meat and potatoes information.

[Simon West]

Back to Abt, to be truly honest I can not account for this, nor can most people.

You can only not account for it if you choose to believe that Oswald was innocent, a patsy or indeed attempting to infiltrate and prevent the assassination.

On the other hand if you choose to believe that Oswald was a communist who had just assassinated the president, motivated by his own political ambitions, then it makes perfect sense. In fact I challenge anyone to propose another scenario where it could make any sense at all.

The choice is yours. What I've found in my short but intensive, up till dawn, research into this is that conspiracy theorists are much more concerned with the strange ballistics and autopsy evidence than they are in actually researching Oswald himself.

In my mind there's no doubt he did it, on his own, leaving the CIA and FBI in a state of panic over their incompetence. In other words "Behind every great conspiracy there is a great fuck up."

Which means that for me my days of posting on this forum are now over, as I have nothing to say that anyone here wants to hear. But inadvertantly you have helped me solve the puzzle for myself, thanks in much part to the info on Judyth Baker and Anne Lewis who helped connect the missing New Orleans dots.

All the best folks,

Simon.