Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Wounds?
Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Wounds?
Before I begin this thread, it must be understood there are certain things about JFK's wounds I believe, and certain things I don't believe. For example, I do not believe a rifle bullet entered JFK's back, making a neat little hole, and only penetrated an inch or so. Considering the normal muzzle velocity of an M91/38 6.5mm Carcano to be roughly 2200 fps, to have so little penetration would mean the bullet was going so slow, it likely barely made it out of the barrel. Also, at this low velocity, bullets tend to de-stabilize and start tumbling, and a tumbling bullet will not make a neat little round entry wound. Further, at this low velocity, a bullet will drop very quickly, and being able to even hit the limo would be an impossible feat. I do believe the x-rays of JFK's head showed hundreds of dust-like particles, mostly because I can think of no reason why anyone would make up such a thing. I do not believe that the bullet that struck JFK's back entered at the level of cervical vertebra C7. I do believe a bullet entered JFK's back 5 3/4 inches below the collar line and 1.5-2 inches to the right of the spinal midline, at about the level of thoracic vertebra T3. I believe this bullet entered JFK's right lung in its upper lobe but did not exit his right lung through the front of his chest. I believe no large or small particles of this bullet were recovered, as there was nothing to recover. Still with me? Think I'm crazy and about to start ranting about ice bullets or plastic bullets that dissolve when in contact with blood? Sorry to disappoint everyone but I am quite sane, and I believe all of the above can be very easily explained with easily available ammunition. Just to refresh everyone's memory, here is a medical diagram showing the lungs and the location of thoracic vertebra T3.http://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com ... 126571.jpg Note that a bullet hitting the back 1.5-2 inches to the right of spinal midline at T3 level cannot go anywhere but into the top end of the right lung. Next, I want to bring up "frangible" ammunition again. I touched on this type of ammo briefly on another thread but will go into it further here. There are many misconceptions about bullets, and most of them seem to be amongst JFK researchers. I have heard the terms hollow point, dum dum, fragmenting and frangible bullets used on these forums as if the terms were interchangeable, yet nothing could be further from the truth. The main, and most important, distinction between hollow point, dum dum and fragmenting bullets and frangible bullets is that the first three are made from solid metal while the frangible bullet is not. The frangible bullet is very unique in that the core is made from compressed metal powder held inside of a copper alloy jacket. And just as surprising is that frangible bullets were not (originally) designed for hunting or warfare but, rather, to promote safety for indoor shooting ranges. This was because a frangible bullet will not ricochet off of a hard object, such as a steel beam. As it is made from compressed metal powder, striking a hard object will simply turn it back into powder, and the only thing to ricochet is the copper alloy jacket. However, there is another way to turn the compressed metal back to powder. Before we go there, here is a clip of Italian made 6.5mm Carcano frangible bullets, supposedly made in 1953. Note that the copper alloy jacket is in two sections with the soldered seam visible towards the front end of the bullet.http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Misc/6.5 ... 65Ital.JPG Considering that Italy had not issued a 6.5mm Carcano rifle to its military since 1945, it may seem a bit odd that ammo for this rifle was being made in Italy as late as 1953, and likely made after this date, as well. It's quite simple, really. The 6.5mm Carcano M91 long rifle was being used (and is still in use today) by Italian teams in international shooting competitions, as it was, and still is, a very accurate rifle. Because of this, it stands to reason that frangible target ammo would be manufactured. Next on display is modern frangible ammo, quite lethal and not intended for the shooting range, made by a compamy called Dynamic Research Technologies (DRT Ammo for short). Here is a link to a page explaining the technology behind these frangible bullets.http://www.drtammo.com/DRT-Technology To better understand the lethality of these bullets, and how they might be connected to JFK's head and lung wounds, here is a cross section of a DRT ammo frangible rifle cartridge with a frangible bullet loaded into it.http://www.drtammo.com/portals/0/Images ... tomy-H.jpg If you look closely at the bullet above, and the Carcano frangible bullets in the clip earlier, you will notice one very significant difference between the bullets; aside from the fact one bullet has a pointed nose and the others are round nosed. The key difference, and the secret behind the lethality of DRT ammo, is the fact that the bullet above is a hollow point bullet, as well as being a bullet with a frangible core made of compressed metal powder. At this point, it is necessary to explain how a hollow point bullet functions, and to dispel many popular myths regarding hollow point bullets. Many times I have seen the belief expressed that JFK could not have been hit in the back of the head by a hollow point bullet, as this type of bullet would have exploded upon impact with JFK's skull, and left a very large entry wound. Once again, nothing could be further from the truth. Hollow points, just like soft points, make a neat little entry wound and only open up once inside the skull. The reason for this is the fluid and semi-fluid matter the bullet encounters as it passes through the brain. Look at the bullet above with its open nose and think of it as a hydraulic cylinder. The high velocity of the bullet forces this liquid matter into the nose where it builds up an incredible hydraulic pressure. This opens the nose up, allowing it to gather even more fluid. Very quickly, the pressure becomes so great, it literally rips the jacket wide open; often right to the base if the bullet has no partition to stop this. Needless to say, the bullet often comes apart into several pieces which do not always exit the skull, even if there is an "exit" wound. Now, remember how I said a frangible bullet didn't have to hit something hard, like steel, in order to turn the compressed metal core back into metal powder? Try to picture the hollow point bullet I described in the last paragraph with a frangible compressed metal core instead of a solid lead core. The same hydraulic pressure that would be spreading the tip open would also be exerting this incredible pressure against the compressed metal powder core. As soon as the opening jacket provides the room, the compressed metal powder core disintegrates into a lethal cloud of metal powder, stopping within an inch or so and transferring all of its energy to surrounding tissue. Such is the DRT frangible bullet with, of course, the hollow point tip. The Carcano frangible bullets seen in the clip, early in this post, need only have holes drilled in their tips to make them hollow point frangibles and produce the same results. To give you an idea of the lethality of DRT frangible bullets, here is a photo of a DRT .223 calibre frangible bullet fired into a lye soap block at 100 yards. Note, on the right hand side of the block, that there is no exit track. In other words, the lethal cloud of metal powder has come to a complete stop within the block and transferred all of its energy to the block. I don't think I have ever seen more devastating results created by a bullet.http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/im ... /76405.jpg I believe this bullet can explain the massive damage to JFK's brain and the dust-like particles seen in the skull x-rays. I also believe this bullet can explain a bullet entering JFK's back and right lung at 2000+ fps, and not exiting his chest.
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
I believe the M91/38 Carcano found on the 6th floor was a prop, and selected as such because of its compact size. This lent credence to the story of the patsy being able to smuggle the rifle into the TSBD. The rifle I would have chosen from the 6.5mm Carcano family for the assassination is pictured below:http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Italian% ... "M.1891/41 was the last model of Mannlicher Carcano infantry rifle. The rifles with double set triggers were built for the military target shooting. They were still used in both, national and international shooting matches in the 1960-s. The arsenal markings are stamped on the back of the barrel, "A Royal Army Crown over FAT 41" (Terni arsenal, 1941). This model of Carcano rifle was built still in 6.5 mm caliber, but with constant pitch rifling." Note that the M91/41 was made not with progressive twist rifling, as the earlier M91 long rifles were, but with fixed or constant pitch rifling. As there were a limited number of these rifles made before the Italians signed an armistice with the Allies in 1943, it is difficult to find out much about the rate of twist of the riflings in the M91/41. However, common sense would tell one there would be no real reason to alter the rate of twist being used in the shorter barrelled M91/38, that being a constant (fixed) rate of twist of 1:8.47. This would give a rifling imprint to bullets fired from an M91/41 identical to the imprint left by an M91/38. Even if the rate of twist was different between the two rifles, who would have even noticed? Look at the nonsense fed to the WC by the FBI's firearms "expert", SA Robert Frazier. If no one was able to see through his lies, do you think anyone would have spotted that the rifling marks on the bullets looked a bit off?
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
There is something else interesting about the M91/41. Note the combination sling mount rings; both side and bottom mount in one.http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Italian% ... 047-37.JPG
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
Robert, a few questions for you which you have probably answered before.1. What do you think of the possibility of the MC bullets having been sabot loaded in a larger calibre rifle, say a Mauser?2. What do you think of the possibilty of the shallow back wound being caused by a 'dud' supressed shot? If this is a non-starter, I can't see far past an ice bullet being the only other alternative.3. Is a small calibre mercury-loaded round a possibilty for the frangiable headshot (a la Frederick Forsyth's Day of The Jackal - inspired by the events of 1963 we are told)? Some have rubbished this idea, but most nay sayers seem to be in the Oswald did it camp.4. Following the studies of researcher James R Gordon, should we be looking at the County Records Building as a rear shooter location?Just looking for your thoughtsBest to you
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
Hello JDI will try to give you my thoughts on these questions one at a time.1. What do you think of the possibility of the MC bullets having been sabot loaded in a larger calibre rifle, say a Mauser?I guess anything is possible, although I believe the amount of effort required to sabot a Carcano bullet into a larger calibre cartridge would hardly be worth the effort, considering how little one would gain in doing so. The M91/41 Carcano I described, being a long rifle, has a muzzle velocity of between 2400 and 2500 fps, as opposed to the M91/38 short rifle found on the 6th floor, with an FBI tested muzzle velocity of 2165 fps. A 7.92mm Mauser is listed as having a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps, firing a 181 grain slug. However, one might need a larger calibre than this to accommodate the thickness of the sabot. Granted, some velocity might be gained firing the narrower 162 grain Carcano full metal jacket slug, but I doubt it would be greater than 100 fps. I have shot deer in the head at 100 yards with .308 calibre hollow point bullets chronographed at just over 2800 fps, and I can attest to the fact that it is not necessary to have this type of bullet travelling over 3000 fps to produce dramatic results. It is not the speed but the performance of the type of bullet that makes the difference. This automatically excludes full metal jacket bullets, such as the one found in the rifle on the 6th floor, and brings us into the realm of hollow point bullets and the hollow point frangible bullets I described.2. What do you think of the possibilty of the shallow back wound being caused by a 'dud' supressed shot? If this is a non-starter, I can't see far past an ice bullet being the only other alternative.Please re-read my post. A dud bullet (presumably deteriorated gunpowder or a cartridge underloaded with gunpowder) is highly unlikely in the type of ammunition LHO allegedly used. That being said, it must also be considered, as I pointed out, that a rifle bullet travelling so slow as to only penetrate an inch in flesh would lose stability and begin to tumble long before it reached JFK`s back. Remember, 6.5mm Carcano FMJ bullets have been test fired and found capable of penetrating 48 inches of pine lumber. To believe this bullet only penetrated an inch in flesh is to be very naïve. As I pointed out, I believe the modified (hollow pointed) 6.5mm Carcano frangible bullet entered JFK`s right lung and disintegrated there, turning back to the metal powder it was made from.3. Is a small calibre mercury-loaded round a possibilty for the frangiable headshot (a la Frederick Forsyth's Day of The Jackal - inspired by the events of 1963 we are told)? Some have rubbished this idea, but most nay sayers seem to be in the Oswald did it camp.I have never seen a mercury filled bullet, and I am not sure such a thing actually exists, but I understand the science behind the theory, and I imagine such a thing would be quite lethal, and not all that difficult to make. However, I still believe the conspirators had great concern about bullets, or fragments of bullets, turning up that were not a reasonable match for the M91/38 Carcano found on the 6th floor. To be honest with you, I believe a hollow point frangible bullet, such as those marketed by DRT Ammo, would be just as lethal, if not even more so, than a mercury filled bullet.4. Following the studies of researcher James R Gordon, should we be looking at the County Records Building as a rear shooter location?I am a great admirer of James Gordon, and his forensic work involving the wound tracks of both JFK and John Connally is, I believe, unparalleled in the JFK research community. Not only has his work medically shown why the SBT is an impossibility, it has also shown distinct problems with the 6th floor window of the TSBD as being the origins of the shots. If Mr. Gordon says the County Records Building was the shooter location, I would recommend looking for shell casings on the roof of that building. P.S. In your 3rd question, I believe you are confusing "fragmenting" with "frangible" bullets. Once again, please re-read my posts, and you will see they are like apples and oranges.
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
Sorry, for the delay in replying to this ... its seems that we are all busy with other things at the moment.1. What do you think of the possibility of the MC bullets having been sabot loaded in a larger calibre rifle, say a Mauser?This was a part-loaded question on my part. I remember Chauncey Holt talking about this - sabots provide endless possibilities to confuse and deceive ballistics experts. Or words to that effect.Imagine the scene: a weapon is found in connection with a killing, it's traced to you. Your weapon is a 7.65 Mauser. Given that they recover 6.5 mm projectiles (as used in say a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano) from the victim, how do they pin the crime on you? How do they link the weapon to the crime? Wrong calibre rifle Boss - try next door2. What do you think of the possibility of the shallow back wound being caused by a 'dud' surpressed shot? If this is a non-starter, I can't see far past an ice bullet being the only other alternative.This was a poorly worded question on my part.I have seen discussed previously that suppressors used in the 1960's and earlier were not very advanced, leading to in some cases, the resultant projectiles having much reduced, sub-lethal velocity.Add to this:It should be mentioned that (if a rifle was first sighted in, and then suppressed) the point of impact will be much lower and a bit to the left for a right-handed shooter. We need to say that again. The point of impact will not be the same if the previously zeroed rifle is used with (or without) its suppressor. A rifle simply cannot be zeroed in one mode and then used in the other. This is a serious liability issue for law enforcement snipers. Litigation specialists (lawyers) will hammer this point to exhaustion in a courtroom if a hostage rescue situation ever goes bad as a direct result of a botched shot, or if innocent bystanders are wrongfully injured. So ... A suppressed shot ends up in the back and not the head due to the zero'ing issue and the silencer kills the velocity, leaving the bullet with little penetration power and only a shallow wound. Just idle speculation don't forget. I have no personal expertise to back this uphttp://www.ctka.net/pr1195-hewett.htmlhttp://g ... hpow.html3. Is a small calibre mercury-loaded round a possibilty for the frangiable headshot (a la Frederick Forsyth's Day of The Jackal - inspired by the events of 1963 we are told)? Some have rubbished this idea, but most nay sayers seem to be in the Oswald did it camp.From The Day of the Jackal:The Gunsmith: Over what range will you fire?The Jackal: I'm not sure yet but probably not more than 400 feet.The Gunsmith: Will the gentleman be moving?The Jackal: Stationary.The Gunsmith: Will you go for a head shot or a chest shot?The Jackal: Probably head.The Gunsmith: What about the chance of a second shot?The Jackal: Well I might get the chance but I doubt it. In any event I'll need a silencer to escape.The Gunsmith: In that case you'd better have explosive bullets. I can prepare a handful along with the gun.The Jackal: Glycerin or mercury?The Gunsmith: Oh mercury... much cleaner.Just fiction by the way .. or so we're told.From The Day of the Jackal:Col. Rodin: [after a pause] Speaking as a professional, do you think it's possible? (the assassination)The Jackal: It's possible. The point is getting away with it. And speaking as a professional, that's a very important consideration.Some dry humour to finish. The Jackal negotiates his fee:The Jackal: Half a million. In cash. Half in advance, and half on completion.Montclair: Half a million francs?The Jackal: Dollars.Montclair: Are you mad?The Jackal: Considering you expect to get France in return, I'd have thought it a reasonable price.This is a once in a lifetime job. Whoever does it can never work again.
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
As the crime scene (ie. limousine) was completely controlled by the FBI and Secret Service, I'm sure any kind of projectiles desired could have been recovered. Also, the 6.5mm Carcano projectile is so long, compared to most other bullets, it would be hard to find a larger calibre rifle to load the Carcano projectile into, and still allow a shooter to chamber the saboted cartridge into a rifle and close the bolt behind it. The 6.5mm full metal jacket projectiles were used in Africa by elephant hunters. The rifle of choice was the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. It fires a 6.5mm projectile weighing 160 grains (the 6.5mm Carcano FMJ projectile weighs 162 grains) at almost the identical muzzle velocity as the 6.5mm Carcano rifle. In fact, the Carcano and Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridges and bullets were virtually indistinguishable, outside of the M-S cartridge being just over 1 mm longer. These bullets were chosen for their tremendous penetrating capabilities, and the fact they could penetrate the thick elephant skull without breaking up. For such a bullet to only penetrate an inch in flesh would translate to an incredible drop in muzzle velocity. If a shooter was aiming at JFK's head, and not expecting this drop in velocity, the bullet would likely hit the pavement somewhere behind the limo, not just a few inches below JFK's head. It is called a "short shot" for a reason; your shots will land far short of your target.Rifle suppressors are fairly simple things. If you look for them, you can find videos on YouTube explaining how to make a suppressor from an oil filter. I am not aware of accuracy problems with 60's vintage suppressors, and if there were problems, wouldn't the shooters in this assassination have been aware of them, as well, and have dealt with them?A mercury round would have been entirely possible though, as I pointed out, I have never seen one before. Such a bullet would also need to have a hollow point on it, in order to begin opening it up and facilitate the rapid expansion that would release a cloud of mercury droplets. Once again, a mercury filled lead bullet would not be considered a frangible bullet but, rather, a hollow point fragmenting bullet. Frangible bullets are made from compressed or sintered metal powder (or very tiny shot) and must possess the ability to disintegrate back into metal powder, if they strike metal or concrete, to qualify as a frangible bullet.It is my belief the bullet that struck JFK in the back was a frangible bullet with a hollow point. It entered his right lung, fluid and semi-fluid matter entered the hollow point and the resulting elevated hydraulic pressure in the nose of the bullet disintegrated the frangible core and turned it into a lethal cloud of metal powder that caused massive damage to JFK's right lung and did NOT exit.Once again, a photo of the results of firing a .223 calibre DRT Ammo frangible hollow point into a block of lye soap:http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/im ... /76405.jpg
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
P.S. I forgot to mention something about suppressors for rifles. As the majority of centrefire rifle cartridges propel their bullets at supersonic (faster than the speed of sound) speeds (speed of sound is 1125 feet/second or 767 mph) it is not really possible to totally silence these rifles. The muzzle blast can be eliminated, making it difficult to locate the source of the shot, yet the sound of the bullet breaking the sound barrier will be heard as a definite "crack"; likely the firecracker noise heard by many witnesses east of the Stemmons Freeway sign and identified as the first shot. As 1125+ fps or 767+ mph is still an impressive velocity for a bullet (the Colt .45 ACP has a muzzle velocity of only 1050 fps with a 185 grain bullet, and has killed many people) and, at this velocity, would be more than capable of putting a full metal jacket bullet right through JFK's chest cavity. Any muzzle velocity below 1125 fps, and there would be no supersonic crack.This is yet another reason the theory of the "dud" cartridge propelling a slow bullet that only penetrated JFK's back an inch is, to me, a non-starter.
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
Can I thank RobertP for some providing such brilliant in depth information on the Carcano rifle and all its ramifications and versions , during previous posts and now a new avenue for a different view on the possible type of ammo used. Since I started reading widely on the subject, the back wound has always been a "curious incident of the dog in the night-time " moment in the affair to me, and one most people gloss over. Would you think that to make a similar powder filled bullet would have been beyond the ability of Oswald and would have required access to a workshop in order to produce one.Which he did not have access to. It might also explain that if Kennedy's lung had been destroyed and he was drowning in blood, why he was gasping for breath and raising his hands to his throat before the head shot(s).My second "dog" moment is Oswald and any type of bullet, my reading has only two shops in the Dallas area selling Carcano Western WW2 surplus (.264) ammo, and neither of those shops could recall selling ammo any to Oswald , but had converted much of their stock to standard lead ammo. So where did Oswald get his ammo and clip from and why was no more ever found, I would not think that a gun shop would sell you a few lose bullets and a clip, but being British we do not really do guns , so maybe they might sell singles back in the sixties. Always seemed to me to be a slack piece of police work to not find where Oswald obtained his bullets or yet another loose end in the "patsy" setup.My third "dog" moment is why would Oswald a trained US Marine only load 3 bullets into a 6 bullet clip, surly a trained marine would load 6 by instinct, his life depends on it, his training would have ensured it, so why not a full clip with bullets still in the gun. Can we really see Oswald when reconnoitering the job, hanging out the 6 floor window and thinking I can only get off 3 rounds here, before Kennedy has passed and is gone so i'll only take three bullets, or was that all he had left after practicing at the rifle range.
Re: Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Woun
Welcome to the forum Alan. I read somewhere a few years ago that the FBI went to all the rifle ranges in the greater Dallas/Ft. Worth area after the Assassination to look for carcano casings and found NOT one there. I will do some checking on this to find the article on it.