First Dealey Visit

[ThomZajac]

As fate would have it, I had a four-hour layover in Dallas last week and was able- with the splendid help of Dallas native, Joseph M Landwermeyer- to check out Dealey Plaza for the very first time. Here is my report-To my surprise, Dealey Plaza looked almost exactly as I had imagined it, but there was a surrealness to the place that dripped as heavy as the cold January mist. I've always been a big-picture guy, more concerned with who was at the top of the conspiracy and less concerned with who took what shots from where and that sort of thing (interesting as it may be), but I was struck by one thing, and I know there is no way to know for sure and that we can argue about it for hours, but here it is:I do believe that Bill Greer was under orders not to leave the plaza until he was sure that JFK had been fatally hit. And I believe that meant coming to a complete stop at a designated spot if that hit had not yet occurred. And so looking down upon from the scene from atop the triple overpass I was struck by where by where the perfect spot would have been to fire the shot that blew out the president brains: the curbside storm drain in front of the limousine. Perfect spot for the fatal shot- the only shot that could have been fired from there (in other words, the only shot fired from there that day). As supporting evidence I've got the expert video guy Tom Davis (not sure of the last name, he was featured in The Men Who Killed Kennedy) who arrived at the same conclusion, the exit wound in the RIGHT back of the president which would not have been possible coming from a shot from the picket fence area (in my opinion), and the fact that a number of witnesses said the fatal shot sounded different, as if it was fired from a cannon- the kind of sound firing from a storm drain would likely produce. The fatal shot does indeed seem to come from a low angle. Anyway, that's what impressed me most about the scene; the storm drain (and what a great way to get away!)Joe (Matt) was a wonderful host. His main interest in the assassination these days is to clear Lee Harvey Oswald's name. Matt sees LHO as a patriot and hero who tried his best to alert higher-ups about the plan, and I'm with him all the way on that. Matt is working on a book on the subject and I'm sure he'll let us all know when he's completed it and it's available.Matt also had an interesting take on something that I hadn't really thought much about. According to Matt, part of the plan had been to have Mac Wallace kill Senator Yarborough (from the 'other' side of the 6th floor) but Mac did not get word that it was the Governor who was riding in the president's car (despite LBJ's extremely hot-headed attempts to have the Governor ride with him). Interesting. Not sure if I'm convinced, but it has me thinking.So that's about it. I hope to go back again someday, but for now I can check that item off my bucket list. Thanks again, Matt!

[Bob]

Thanks for posting your take on the visit to Dealey Plaza, Thom. There is no doubt in my mind that Bill Greer and Roy Kellerman knew what was going to go down that day in Dealey Plaza. Take a look at this photo of the limo on Main Street just as it's about to make a right on Houston. Greer has his car door open. Almost like he's thinking of bailing out before the shit hits the fan.Also, a number of witnesses have said that when the limo turned left on Elm Street, Greer almost put the limo on the curb on the corner where the TSBD was. By slowing down and stopping, Greer made it much easier for the assassins to get their job done, not to mention not getting shot himself. Greer was probably the poster boy for depends underwear after that drive.Also, it has been proven without a doubt about the complicity of both Greer and Kellerman in the assassination in Volume IV of Inside the ARRB by Doug Horne, due to their actions at Bethesda later that night.I still say the fatal shot was fired by Jimmy Files, which occurred almost simultaneously after the shot by Chuck Nicoletti in the Dal-Tex Building. The mercury round from Jimmy's fireball is what caused the horrific head wound. That and the shot by Nicoletti which proceeded it by a nano-second.Jimmy's shot also caused the throat wound, which was really exiting shrapnel. Dr. Robert McClelland, one of the attending doctors at Parkland, said he couldn't say for sure if the throat wound was an entrance or an exit wound. He was focusing more on the head wound. Also, Thom Robinson, who was present for both the pre-autopsy procedure and the actual autopsy, said their were a couple of exiting shrapnel wounds on JFK's face. That also came from Jimmy's mercury round.In terms of the cannon sound, the Fireball also puts out that type of sound.Anyway, it sounds like you had a great time, thanks for sharing your visit with us.

[ThomZajac]

Biggest problem for me about Files firing the fatal shot is that the blowout to JFK's skull was in the back RIGHT, as JFK appeared to be looking just about straight ahead at the moment of the impact. Of course, with the Zapruder film having been altered (there can no longer be any doubt about that from anyone truly willing to examine the evidence), it can't be used as the only source for determining JFK's head position at that moment. If you have a moment Bob, or anyone else, to demonstrate how a shot from Files position could have entered JFK above the right eye and exited from the back right, I'm all ears.....

[Bob]

ThomZajac wrote:Biggest problem for me about Files firing the fatal shot is that the blowout to JFK's skull was in the back RIGHT, as JFK appeared to be looking just about straight ahead at the moment of the impact. Of course, with the Zapruder film having been altered (there can no longer be any doubt about that from anyone truly willing to examine the evidence), it can't be used as the only source for determining JFK's head position at that moment. If you have a moment Bob, or anyone else, to demonstrate how a shot from Files position could have entered JFK above the right eye and exited from the back right, I'm all ears.....Okay doubting Thomas. Let me try. First see this video by Doug Horne which talks about the three head shots that JFK received.http://fff.org/explore-freedom/article/ ... art-3/This entire presentation by Horne is fantastic and has five segments.You know how much I respect Horne and his work. By the way, Horne has gone out of his way to say how close David Lifton was to the truth regarding JFK's wound alterations. Lifton thought that JFK had the alteration of his wounds procedure done prior to his arrival to Bethesda in his 1981 book, Best Evidence. Actually, as it turns out, JFK had a pre-autopsy procedure done at Bethesda, which was seen by Thom Robinson, who also saw the actual autopsy.Anyway, Horne believes that JFK was shot in the head three times. One shot from behind via the Dal-Tex Building, one from the picket fence area on the grassy knoll, which was the shot which hit the right temple area and one from further up near the overpass (probably your storm drain shot) which went above JFK's right eye near the hairline.Horne believes that the shot above JFK's right eye exited in the left portion in the back of JFK's skull. He believes that the shot in the right temple was the one which caused the massive exit wound in the right-back of JFK's skull.That being said, I do disagree with Horne about the throat wound, which he still believes to be an entrance wound. Don't worry though, I'm working on that. Why? Horne has put together a lot of the pieces to the puzzle in the JFK assassination thanks to the testimony of Thom Robinson. The two small exiting shrapnel wounds on JFK's face that Robinson saw, would seem to add to the theory that some of us believe that the throat wound was also a small exiting shrapnel wound.

[ThomZajac]

Doug Horne is awesome. Love him.And I particularly like what he said about trying to determine precisely where the shots came from and what damage they caused. This isn't verbatim, but it went something like this.... "Once you have established that shots came from two different locations (directions) it's time to get out of Dealey Plaza and begin focusing on the coverup. Trying to determine where the shots came from and what damage they caused is folly as it can never be known, and it makes all such discussion no more than a parlor game."Parlor games are fun, and interesting as hell, but they just aren't going to arrive at anything knowable.We have different opinions as to where the fatal shot originated, Bob, but that doesn't change the nature of the conspiracy to kill the president, or the conspiracy to cover it up. Discussions on those points will certainly be far more fruitful, no?And yes, I know, I was the one who brought it up in the first place! Got a parlor handy?

[JDB4JFK]

Where does Horne say the third shot came from? Bob????

[Bob]

JDB4JFK wrote:Where does Horne say the third shot came from? Bob????See 25:20 of Horne's presentation, where he talks about the head shot sequence.But he basically says that the third shot which hit JFK above the right eye near the hairline came from an area where the fence line met the overpass.So if you look at it like the limo was a fighter plane taking fire, Files would be closer to 2:00 (two o'clock), while the other shooter further down towards the overpass would be at around 1:00 (one o'clock). Nicoletti at the Dal-Tex Building would have been at around 5:00 (five o'clock).

[ThomZajac]

(Parlor Game Continued)I would like to point out that Bob disagrees with Horne on a very key point: the throat wound, which Bob and Files Hook-Line-And-Sinkers believe to have been an exit wound (small piece of Files' frangible bullet). JFK's reaction to first being hit, they argue, is due to a shot entering his back, and it's just sort of an illusion that JFK is reaching for this throat; it's what arms and hands do when the spine is being impacted from behind.I agree with Horne on the throat wound and disagree with him regarding the fatal frontal head wound; my money is on the curbside storm drain.For those who say Files fired the fatal shot, I'd love to see a schematic of the path of the bullet and how it could have exited the RIGHT rear of the president's head. (Or did someone write that that shot wasn't what caused that particular wound?) Horne contends that it came from more straight on than where Files claimed to have fired, from perhaps the 'other' storm drain higher up and much further down the fence line.

[Bob]

Continuing the parlor game, where I'll select the game of pool. In college, I used to be known as "Mr. Drysdale", because I was so good at banking.Anyway, Files didn't just shoot normal ammunition. He used a mercury load (an exploding bullet) which causes massive damage when it exits. Plus, remember that Chuck Nicoletti's shot hit JFK in the head just a nano-second before Files squeezed off his shot. Files was aiming at JFK's right eye. He was very careful to make sure that Jackie Kennedy was NOT in his line of fire. That should give you an idea of where Files was aiming. Because of Nicoletti's shot, which moved JFK's head forward, Files had his shot move to the left a couple of inches to the temple area. From the two o'clock shooting angle, the exit wound area make sense to me.Enough of that. Eight ball in the side pocket off the rail.

[JDB4JFK]

Bob if Nicoletti or whomever, shot JFK in the back of the head where was the exit wound, because the front of his face was intact???Thom Zajac, if you believe the sewer shot was the fatal head shot than where was it's exit??? Wouldn't the bullet be traveling in an upward manner, meaning the exit would be in the top of JFK'S head???Also when you were in Dealey Plaza did you notice the masonic symbolism???