WHAT DO WE REALLY KNOW?

[Dealey Joe]

Sometimes I do not express myself in order for others to understand.FOR INSTANCE, take Jimmy Files, He has been scrutinized and his story investigated and even though there are some who choose not to beleive him his story is mostly rock solid. There is a chance that he is full of crap but considering all the facts I think we should accept him as real.There are several other people who say they find figures with guns in the shadows, badgeman ect.50 people telling 50 different stories.If all those were in fact there it would have looked like an army marching out of there.The more I watch Ed Hoffmans explanation the more I do not beleive him.Some of the things he says just does not add up.I do not accept him as credible.We don't seem to have a decision tree to keep track of what we really know and spend a lot of time rehashing stuff over and over.But maybe that is nessecary and part of the way a forum works.Is anyone going to Dealey Sunday?

[kenmurray]

Dealey Joe wrote:Sometimes I do not express myself in order for others to understand.FOR INSTANCE, take Jimmy Files, He has been scrutinized and his story investigated and even though there are some who choose not to beleive him his story is mostly rock solid. There is a chance that he is full of crap but considering all the facts I think we should accept him as real.There are several other people who say they find figures with guns in the shadows, badgeman ect.50 people telling 50 different stories.If all those were in fact there it would have looked like an army marching out of there.The more I watch Ed Hoffmans explanation the more I do not beleive him.Some of the things he says just does not add up.I do not accept him as credible.We don't seem to have a decision tree to keep track of what we really know and spend a lot of time rehashing stuff over and over.But maybe that is nessecary and part of the way a forum works.Is anyone going to Dealey Sunday?Dealey Joe, I wish I could attend especially that COPA conference. In 2010, I'm making plans to go. If you go I hope you run into Bob Groden.

[Kirk]

Joe, I understand you pretty good, and pretty much totally agree. I think it is time to weed out the fiction, and just focus. I thought long and hard about going up to Dealey in a few days. I have only been there really once for any real length of time, which is odd because I am relatively speaking close. I tend to blame the drive between the Waco area and Dallas, but mostly it feels awkward walking in Dealey. Maybe instead this summer, when it is to hot for anybody but me to be out there. If you go I hope it is a good experience.KirkDealey Joe wrote:Sometimes I do not express myself in order for others to understand.FOR INSTANCE, take Jimmy Files, He has been scrutinized and his story investigated and even though there are some who choose not to beleive him his story is mostly rock solid. There is a chance that he is full of crap but considering all the facts I think we should accept him as real.There are several other people who say they find figures with guns in the shadows, badgeman ect.50 people telling 50 different stories.If all those were in fact there it would have looked like an army marching out of there.The more I watch Ed Hoffmans explanation the more I do not beleive him.Some of the things he says just does not add up.I do not accept him as credible.We don't seem to have a decision tree to keep track of what we really know and spend a lot of time rehashing stuff over and over.But maybe that is nessecary and part of the way a forum works.Is anyone going to Dealey Sunday?

[andries]

Ed Hoffman is very likely and plausible the most credible and honest witneses allong with BowersHoffman and Bowers the only first hand witneses who absolutely did not know each other, and each other,s statements, two ordinaire man who had no other influence or interests than telling the thruth,and the statements scary support each other.It is well accepted in general that people like Ed have a better view than average,besides they have a far less habbit or need for lies, There is however more presumeble support for their statements

[Dealey Joe]

Well I think it is a beautiful spot located in an otherwise drab area.I go there average once a month. Sometimes just drive thru but sometimes stop a while.I have met Robert Groden there previously and plan to look him up Sunday.Actually this will be my first trip on the aniversary day.I never went into the so called museum.I might do that this time as I imagine Mack will be there and I can asked him a question or two.you might have to have you come bail me out.Yes Waco brings up another sore spot with me. Don't hear much about Waco but JFK/Dallas don't hold a candle to what happened at Waco.

[Bob]

Dealey Joe wrote:Well I think it is a beautiful spot located in an otherwise drab area.I go there average once a month. Sometimes just drive thru but sometimes stop a while.I have met Robert Groden there previously and plan to look him up Sunday.Actually this will be my first trip on the aniversary day.I never went into the so called museum.I might do that this time as I imagine Mack will be there and I can asked him a question or two.you might have to have you come bail me out.Yes Waco brings up another sore spot with me. Don't hear much about Waco but JFK/Dallas don't hold a candle to what happened at Waco.Have a great time Joe, although I'm sure it will be a bit somber. Speaking of Lee Bowers, look at this from another thread. Michael Calder wrote JFK vs. CIA and is now a forum member, plus he's working on some real interesting stuff about the RFK assassination. Anyway, speaking of Bowers, look at this passage from Michael's website...DallasI’m rolling into Dallas. Having written JFK vs CIA I’m finally visiting the scene of the crime. Seeing the Texas School Book Depository looming large in the distance is thrilling. Too bad the murder of a president is the source of this excitement. There is a parking lot above Elm Street overlooking Dealey Plaza and I park my car. I take the tour of the 6th Floor Museum glancing at the “Sniper’s Nest” but what interests me more is where the rifle was found. Walking the length of the floor I realize that was quite a walk for the person who actually fired from the sniper’s nest. Anxious to do the real tour I walked out of the building and into Dealey Plaza. There is the tower that Lee Bowers was a top when the shooting occurred. As the railroad switchman he had a commanding view of the Plaza. I could see the vehicles he spoke of with out of state license plates slowly moving in front of the tower shortly before the president’s motorcade arrived. One vehicle had a Goldwater bumper sticker and Mr. Bowers saw a driver speaking into a radio microphone. He also spoke of two men on top of the grassy knoll twenty minutes before the shooting watching as it made its way down Main Street. Asked by the Warren Commission if the two men were at the same location when the shots were fired he answered, no. The younger man in the plaid shirt was in the bushes and the older man in the suit was standing alone next to the bushes. He implied the man in the bushes was firing at the president. Lee Bowers died a couple of years after his testimony in a one car traffic accident. My own speculation is the man in the suit may be Jack Ruby. A man named James Files claims to be the shooter and when asked what he was wearing that day he said, “a plaid shirt.” Interesting.Yes...very interesting. I believe it was James Files in the plaid shirt. The older man in the suit may have been Jack Ruby. Or it may have been Edward Lansdale. Files recently confirmed that Lansdale spoke to him just before the assassination. We KNOW that Lansdale was in Dealey Plaza...or at least people who should know do. Look at this from the Fletcher Prouty website as "Lansdale" passes by the three tramps..."The haircut, the stoop, the twisted left hand, the large class ring. It's Lansdale." - Lt. Gen. Victor Krulak

[Dealey Joe]

andries wrote:Ed Hoffman is very likely and plausible the most credible and honest witneses allong with BowersHoffman and Bowers the only first hand witneses who absolutely did not know each other, and each other,s statements, two ordinaire man who had no other influence or interests than telling the thruth,and the statements scary support each other.It is well accepted in general that people like Ed have a better view than average,besides they have a far less habbit or need for lies, There is however more presumeble support for their statementsAndriesI know you are an ED supporter and that is good.However there are some things about Ed that bother me.One I think the guys on the underpass would have seen what he says he saw, they were in the best position.Ed was a long way from the fence but I am pretty sure the tracks was in his view.another thing he says is he couldn't get the FBI to listen to him and then that the FBI offered to pay him? to me that is not beleivable..No one seems to agree on what happened in the train yard.My experience is that spectators all want to get into the story and get caught up saying things that are not true.I have seem this happen in person.Unless we have some witness to what Ed saw then I think we have to suspect it.In order to accept things as fact there must be a witness to it.there is so much we do not know or suspect I am just trying to figure out what we really do know within reason.

[ChristophMessner]

Joe, your considerations and judgements are all good. Let me add, that logical conclusion can be counted as evidence as well, like: If there are 9 imprints of bullets on ground/frames/shields/flesh/curbs showing different trajectory origin, then there weren't flown only 3 bullets. or: When there is no exit wound at the back of the neck, then the throat wound cannot be an entry wound, while the neck material is too soft to let any bullet stick in it. or: When there are so many agents on the photos of Dealey Plaza that day, like Ed Lansdale, Harrelson, Holt, Rogers, Hunt, Milteer, Hemmings, Bosch, Witt, Conein, Shackley, ... then the assassin(s) must not be called "lone" one(s). etc. etc. So I would say, that we do really know, that Oswald was no lone assassin, and we do almost really know, that he was no assassin at all. Chris

[andries]

Dealey Joe wrote:andries wrote:Ed Hoffman is very likely and plausible the most credible and honest witneses allong with BowersHoffman and Bowers the only first hand witneses who absolutely did not know each other, and each other,s statements, two ordinaire man who had no other influence or interests than telling the thruth,and the statements scary support each other.It is well accepted in general that people like Ed have a better view than average,besides they have a far less habbit or need for lies, There is however more presumeble support for their statementsAndriesI know you are an ED supporter and that is good.However there are some things about Ed that bother me.One I think the guys on the underpass would have seen what he says he saw, they were in the best position.Ed was a long way from the fence but I am pretty sure the tracks was in his view.another thing he says is he couldn't get the FBI to listen to him and then that the FBI offered to pay him? to me that is not beleivable..No one seems to agree on what happened in the train yard.My experience is that spectators all want to get into the story and get caught up saying things that are not true.I have seem this happen in person.Unless we have some witness to what Ed saw then I think we have to suspect it.In order to accept things as fact there must be a witness to it.there is so much we do not know or suspect I am just trying to figure out what we really do know within reason.Joe,i think if we totaly dismiss ed hoffman,s statement the consequentes are that we have to totaly dismiss more important statements,events,indications,remarks and witneses all indicating.that there were at least two and not one person at the scene.and we better do our best to adept the story off one person on his own all the time behind the fence and presuming that landsdale himself for instance was behind the fence for a brief conversation with james files ??Sam Holland and railroad buddy,s couldn,t see anything during the shooting they just saw a puff of smoke behind the fence,bowers and hoffman were the only persons from what we know who had a view behind the fence.

[Dealey Joe]

Quote Michael Calder wrote --------"Asked by the Warren Commission if the two men were at the same location when the shots were fired he answered, no. The younger man in the plaid shirt was in the bushes and the older man in the suit was standing alone next to the bushes. He implied the man in the bushes was firing at the president. Lee Bowers died a couple of years after his testimony in a one car traffic accident. My own speculation is the man in the suit may be Jack Ruby. A man named James Files claims to be the shooter and when asked what he was wearing that day he said, “a plaid shirt.” Interesting.Yes...very interesting. I believe it was James Files in the plaid shirt. The older man in the suit may have been Jack Ruby. Or it may have been Edward Lansdale. Files recently confirmed that Lansdale spoke to him just before the assassination. We KNOW that Lansdale was in Dealey Plaza...or at least people who should know do"---------------Andries thanks for your comments.I must accept Jimmy Files as credible, I can't find a way to reconcile Ed's story as compatible with things we know.To me Hollands story supports Files story.Bowers story seems to also support Files Story.Can you tell me how Ed's story fits?I can't dind any other witness to Ed's story.also we must keep in mind that the parking lot was filled to overflow and there would be people comming and going.we also have selective memory and hearing that affects what we think we saw or heard.