Israeli involvement in 9/11 and spying on the U.S.

[Martin Hinrichs]

By the way, i'am not Jew. I'am Christian.I become Christian at an age with no memory...... like everybody.Nevertheless i defend Jews cause they are a persecuted minority.Martin

[Bob]

Bottom line, I don't care about ethnicity here. Millions of Jews died in WWII. Hitler was the main reason why. But LOTS of people died during WWII. Estimates say that between 50 MILLION and 70 MILLION died during those bloody years. I'm sure a lot of our European members of the forum had family members that were engaged during the war. The U.S. had over 400,000 service members die during WWII. Another 700,000 were wounded. The United Kingdom had over 380,000 of it's people die. Germany lost more than 5.5 million people during the war according to estimates. Japan lost more than 2.1 million people. The Soviet Union lost close to 10 million people. Countless others from other countries like France, Italy, Australia, Belgium, Canada, China (some say over 3 million people died...thanks to the Japanese), the Netherlands, New Zealand, Spain and so many other countries...from all over the world. We ALL died a little during that war. That's why I am SO greatful that JFK did not start WWIII, when the Joint Chiefs, the CIA and the entire Military Indusrial Complex wanted him to invade Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. JFK said no...and he also saved us from a nuclear conflict as well. That is why he is considered a GREAT American President. That and all the other things he was trying to change. Things like race relations, the Federal Reserve, big banking, big oil and not escalating the conflict in Vietnam. That cost him his life on 11/22/1963.

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

Martin Hinrichs wrote:Ok, i see.I've expected to talk to a sane person. My mistake.Please let me allow one question.Who is responsible for your dilemma? Who brought you on that track?Jim Fetzer?Wow, Martin. You're resorting to name-calling to supposedly prove your point? That just shows the weakness in your character and the weakness in your argument. If I'm not mistaken, isn't it against the law in Germany to deny the holocaust? Don't you live in Germany? Am I right? Assuming that I'm right, you're going to lecture about who is talking like a sane person? As for what you call my "dilemma," I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not confused, and there is no dilemma for me except for getting the truth and facts out there. As for Jim Fetzer, he has nothing to do with my way of thinking. You can ask him yourself. Just grow a backbone and e-mail him. What is interesting is that you call me insane, and you have NOT addressed the facts. How very interesting indeed. Try harder next time, Martin. You'll look better for it. Calling people names is not a way to prove your point.So, I show you proof that the number of people supposedly killed in Auschwitz was reduced by at least a 2 MILLION by the people who run Auschwitz today. I asked why the magic "6 million" number is still thrown around by the media, and your response is to call me insane. Wow! LOL My question still stands. How does the official number of people killed in Auschwitz get reduced from 4 million to 1.5 million and yet they STILL refer to that magic 6 million number?

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

Martin Hinrichs wrote:Dealey Joe wrote:Could someone explain to me what or who is a Jew?Joe, Jew's is a group, who is in most cases innocent murdered the last 2 thousands yearsfollowing a religion which upset many people it appears.Jew is a religion group who suffered the most of all in the last centuries.Many, but not most living in Israel meanwhile.The most in the USA.PF, don't know much about it.The mass murder of the Jews with full knowledgde was Adolf Hitler.His followers murdered ~6 millions Jews.It was a genocide.In case you will ever be here, i show you the truth. You are invited.best to youMartinAre you sure your "6 millions Jews" number is correct? I just showed you proof that the Auschwitz number of dead was reduced by over 2 million, from 4 million to 1.5 million. It's on the memorial plate at Auschwitz. If the numbers of dead Jews in WWII is being reduced by MILLIONS, and, as Bob pointed out, 10 million Russians died, how can you say that Jews suffered the most? If Jews were persecuted over the centuries, as you say, you might want to ask why. Why were they expelled from so many countries over the centuries as you say? Is the rest of the world insane? What about Native Americans who were practically pushed off the North American continent? I can assure you that they suffered a lot more than the Jews did. What I DO know is that there is very significant evidence of Israeli involvement in 9/11. For the rest of you who have not seen it, take a look at the previous pages on this topic. I also know things like in the 1950s, there was an incident called the Lavon Affair, where an Israeli spy ring was busted up for planting bombs in British and American buildings in Egypt, I believe, and leaving behind false evidence that Arabs did it. I also know that the Israeli air force viciously attacked the USS Liberty, a harmless US intelligence ship. It almost seems like the Israelis were trying to make it look like the Egyptians did it. Might these be some of the reasons why "they" (Zionists) have been so persecuted? I don't know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affa ... ncidentFor the record, there are Jews who even live in Iran, so I understand, who get along just fine there. What is it about Zionists that makes them bring up words like "holocaust" and "genocide?" What is it about Zionists that makes them attack humanitarian boats in international waters? Why did I even start this topic about Israeli involvement in 9/11? I'm talking about Zionists. I have nothing against Jewish people at all. So, get over it. If you're living in Germany now, it is my understanding that you could go to jail for denying the Holocaust. Am I right? If I am right, why do you bother with this discussion? Do you really believe what you are saying?Have you ever been to Los Angeles or California? Those poor "suffering" Jews actually do very well here, and I mean VERY well here. You should take a look at a documentary called Defamation. It's a documentary done by an Israeli, Yoav Shamir, where he exposes, among other things, how Israeli high school kids are indoctrinated with the same false ideas that you, Martin, are saying. They are taught to fear and even hate non-Jews and to take on the "persecution" complex. It looks like it's almost like a sick good-cop/bad-cop routine. It seems to me that "they" (Zionists) try to identify themselves as "persecuted" and "minorities," while "they" also dominate and control the media and influence government and even free speech through organizations like the ADL and JDL and, of course AIPAC. They also seem to dominate the banking system as well. Um...names like Rothschild come to mind for me regarding the banking system. Didn't that family even fund the first settlements in what is now Israel well BEFORE WWII? Am I mistaken about that? How "persecuted" are they really? While "they" (Zionists) babble on, like Martin did, about how "persecuted" the Jews are, they also kick Palestinians out of their homes, then bulldoze those homes and create permanent settlements there. Since Martin thinks I'm insane, I'll take that as a compliment. When there is someone who is boxed-in in their thinking, closed minded, and a name caller, and they think I'm insane, I take it with a badge of honor. I aim to please. Maybe, Martin, I'll get you to loosen up and get that knot out of your underwear so you can be set free mentally. The world is a much better place when your underwear isn't wedged between your cheeks. It's been my experience that just about all of the people I have met who throw around the word "insane" against other people, instead of addressing the facts, actually have NO ARGUMENT. That is why they resort to name calling. It's because what they have to say is WEAK. For example, Martin, pictures of Ann Frank's grave do not address the facts. See what I mean? So, don't be childish about this. If the evidence regarding Israeli involvement in 9/11 rings true for the rest of you, or for even some of you, what makes you think that they only started doing it on 9/11 in 2001? We KNOW they were doing false flag operations as far back as the 1950s. It's proven fact. We also know that organizations like AIPAC heavily influence our government. Do you get it? I suspect that this is one of the main reasons that people like Martin say things like "Jews have suffered the most" over the centuries. In my opinion, it's because the mainstream media just TOLD US SO, in spite of the evidence. I'm being totally serious. For the rest of you sane people, take a look at the information and think for yourselves.

[JDThomas]

Gentlemen,please read the testimony in the link - that of Rudolf Hoess (not to be confused with Hitler's unbalanced 'deputy' Rudolph Hess). This man was the Commander at Auschwitz who gave very frank and honest tesimony at the Nuremberg trials for which he received no favour and was hanged at Auschwitz afterwards. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... stest.html

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

JDThomas wrote:Gentlemen,please read the testimony in the link - that of Rudolf Hoess (not to be confused with Hitler's unbalanced 'deputy' Rudolph Hess). This man was the Commander at Auschwitz who gave very frank and honest tesimony at the Nuremberg trials for which he received no favour and was hanged at Auschwitz afterwards. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... st.htmlHow gallant of Hoess to just give his testimony without favor only to be hanged for it. If only his testimony had evidence to back his words and numbers, I'd believe it. I also suspect that his supposed "affidavit" was coerced. For one thing, he lists 2.5 million people. The Auschwitz memorial plaque at first said a whopping 4 million and then was changed to only 1.5 million killed. See my pictures above. What gives? How can such a credible witness be off in EITHER direction by so much? Where are the documents or "teletypes" Hoess refers to? Why has not one of the surfaced?Hoess supposedly said:I commanded Auschwitz until 1 December 1943, and estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed and exterminated there by gassing and burning, and at least another half million succumbed to starvation and disease making a total dead of about 3,000,000. This?figure represents about 70 or 80 percent of all persons sent to Auschwitz as prisoners, the remainder having been selected and used for slave labor in the concentration camp industries; included among the executed and burned were approximately 20,000 Russian prisoners of war (previously screened out of prisoner-of-war cages by the Gestapo) who were delivered at Auschwitz in Wehrmacht transports operated by regular Wehrmacht officers and men. The remainder of the total number of victims included about 100,000 German Jews, and great numbers of citizens, mostly Jewish, from Holland, France, Belgium, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Greece, or other countries. We executed about 400,000 Hungarian Jews alone at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944."This supposed reliable witness was off in his numbers by a MILLION people. If you count the total dead (including those who died of "natural causes"), then he's off by a 1.5 MILLION. That's 1 million to 1.5 million off from the REVISED number. He's STILL off from the original Auschwitz number of 4 million as well. So, this man can be off by such large numbers, and the rest of his supposed testimony that was supposedly not coerced is supposed to be believable an accurate? He even references written documents, and yet NONE have surfaced in decades that I'm aware of. Then to supposedly nail the point home that his testimony was not coerced, the affidavit says:"I understand English as it is written above. The above statements are true; this declaration is made by me voluntarily and without compulsion; after reading over the statement I have signed and executed the same at Nuremberg, Germany, on the fifth day of April 1946."That sounds about as credible as those supposed statements that were obtained by waterboarding and other torture in Guantanamo. "After being questioned by his captors and beaten severely, Höss confessed his real identity."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6%C3%9FWhy is there not one document in evidence of the "final solution" to exterminate the Jews as a race? Why are Hoess's figures off by so much? Why did the Auschwitz memorial/museum administrators change the number of murdered or killed from 4 million to only 1.5 million in the 1990s? Why doesn't the witness's number match EITHER of the official Auschwitz memorial numbers?

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

Like I said, the official number of those killed in Auschwitz was changed from 4 million to only 1.5 million in the 1990s. See my links above.The Auschwitz memorial/museum administrators changed the number themselves in light of new information.My only point is that it's beginning to look less and less like a Jewish thing, and it's beginning to look less and less like "Jews suffered the most" or that "6 million" Jews died as the very sane Martin Hinrichs said.

[JDThomas]

Pasquale, you make some good points here and in the main, I think that much of Hoess' testimony leans towards your point of view. As you rightly point-out, the numbers question remains unresolved - the numbers dead at Auschwitz has been changed for a reason, but that needs explanation and as you rightly say, can the commander be out by over a million either way? These are BIG numbers, not even tens of thousands out.If you take Hoess' testimony about the disease and startvation at the end of the war due to the bombing of the supply lines, this would appear possibly invalidate Martin's photographic evidence showing the dreafull piles of emaciated bodies. This is not to excuse what happened, but to show that mass starvation was not part of the extermination plan.I still think that the Jews bore the brunt of Nazi hatred and were the main focus of planned extermination in camps, but that should not underplay the millions of others who were executed who were not Jews and were not combat deaths and who's deaths remain largely ignored. German soldiers grew up being taught that slavs were subhumans and surviving letters have shown that they thought that they were doing the right thing in killing and destroying whole communities indescriminatly as they advanced eastwards - much of what survived was exterminated as they retreated. A good portion of my wife's family was murdered in such a fashion. My wife's grandmother was rescued by a red army advanced party who found her and the rest of the young girls from the community being forced to dig their own mass grave and after witnessing the older generation being shot first. She is still alive and it is harrowing to hear her first hand testimony of events.My own perception is that in Europe the Holocaust is seen as affecting more than one group of people, but in America, the offical view is that the Holocaust was only concerned with Jews. To challenge the official view lays a person open to be accused of being a Nazi, anti-semite, Holocaust denier, even though the death of one innocent Jew was a crime in itself.Being attacked for challenging the official version of events? now where have I heard that before?

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

JDThomas wrote:Pasquale, you make some good points here and in the main, I think that much of Hoess' testimony leans towards your point of view. As you rightly point-out, the numbers question remains unresolved - the numbers dead at Auschwitz has been changed for a reason, but that needs explanation and as you rightly say, can the commander be out by over a million either way? These are BIG numbers, not even tens of thousands out.If you take Hoess' testimony about the disease and startvation at the end of the war due to the bombing of the supply lines, this would appear possibly invalidate Martin's photographic evidence showing the dreafull piles of emaciated bodies. This is not to excuse what happened, but to show that mass starvation was not part of the extermination plan.I still think that the Jews bore the brunt of Nazi hatred and were the main focus of planned extermination in camps, but that should not underplay the millions of others who were executed who were not Jews and were not combat deaths and who's deaths remain largely ignored. German soldiers grew up being taught that slavs were subhumans and surviving letters have shown that they thought that they were doing the right thing in killing and destroying whole communities indescriminatly as they advanced eastwards - much of what survived was exterminated as they retreated. A good portion of my wife's family was murdered in such a fashion. My wife's grandmother was rescued by a red army advanced party who found her and the rest of the young girls from the community being forced to dig their own mass grave and after witnessing the older generation being shot first. She is still alive and it is harrowing to hear her first hand testimony of events.My own perception is that in Europe the Holocaust is seen as affecting more than one group of people, but in America, the offical view is that the Holocaust was only concerned with Jews. To challenge the official view lays a person open to be accused of being a Nazi, anti-semite, Holocaust denier, even though the death of one innocent Jew was a crime in itself.Being attacked for challenging the official version of events? now where have I heard that before?JD Thomas,I fully appreciate your respectful tone. Martin's tone was unacceptable. That aside, I want to say that I am fully aware that the Nazi's were brutal and that they killed Jews in mass numbers and that they probably killed Jews in mass number BECAUSE they were Jews, just like they killed other groups in mass numbers because they opposed the Nazis. My question is whether they were actually trying to exterminate the Jews as a race. I am suspecting that this might be a myth created by Zionists. There seems to be no documentation, and the numbers are, as you agreed, uncertain. As for there being letters or documents that show that Germans destroyed whole communities indescriminately as they advanced eastwards, I have no doubt that they did so. War is war. The Israelis, for example, have no problem bulldozing Palestinian homes and destroying neighborhoods as they "defend" themselves. The United States destroyed whole cities full of civilians in WWII with atomic boms to "advance" their agenda. I don't know what the perception of Europeans is regarding the Holocaust. It's my understanding that in Germany TODAY, you can be arrested and jailed for denying the Holocaust. If you are correct when you say that in America the official view is that the Holocaust was only concerned with Jews, I would agree with you, and I would blame the American media for that. There are actually people who think Israel was created BECAUSE of WWII, when this is not fact. For example, "In 1917 Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild was the addressee of the Balfour Declaration to the Zionist Federation,[18] which committed the British government to the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_familySo, they were talking about it as far back as 1917.As for anyone who might call me a Nazi or anti-Semite, they would be lying. Nowhere have I said that Jews are bad people. What I do think is that Zionists (to be distinguished from Jews because there are plenty of Jewish people who are NOT Zionist) have been posing a problem in the United States. They appear to heavily influence our legislature and government through lobbies like AIPAC, and they appear to attack anyone who criticizes them through organizations like the JDL and ADL. It's easy to just dismiss someone by calling them names like insane, racist, or anti-Semite. I also suspect that it was Zionists who artificially inflated the numbers of Jews who died in WWII. Was it to gain world sympathy for the Israeli settlements? I don't know, but I'd say that was probably one of the reasons.As for people who might call me a Nazi or anti-Semite, they would be the same type of people who stereotype people like us here on this forum as conspiracy nuts. That's how little their opinion is worth. LOLThanks for your positive input. I appreciate it.

[kenmurray]

http://holocaustforgotten.com/Lucaire.htm