The Shooters

[Maarten Coumans]

Roel Mulder wrote:Wim, I remember Files stated that He saw Jack Ruby in D.P., in fact close by.Is it possible that Black Dog Man was Jack Ruby?

Nice. James stated that Jack was closer to him that afternoon, than that morning in Fort Worth. I never talked to the man, but that was him.

After the shots, he was seen running from the corner of the TSBD to the parking lot.

The Zapruder film has 5 frames showing somebody's head, or hat.
Although there was only one frame recognizable, it showed a fold or shadow extending towards Elm.
Now the patched up Gary Mack Moorman picture, has L-R, Arnold filming, Badgeman firing, and a "railroadworker" looking to his side.
The last one is called that way because of his hat, I think.
When I was watching one of the JFK DVD's I came across a picture that showed a crowd at the TSBD, just after. Among the people looking at the building was a man wearing a kind of hat you'd wear in the tropics. Way oversized, and has a fold in the top, running nearly horizontal left to right.
I will insert it in the Moorman picrure, mirrored.
On the down-side. If he is involved, why stick around? Except "guide" the police in their "findings", making sure ........ well, you can count.

On the up-side for the existence, senator Yarborough colourfull described Arnold's reaction to a shot.

So that fight is far from over.

Gr. Maarten

[Roel Mulder]

In the second Peter R. De Vries broadcast about the subject there was Robert Groden, saying that is was very easy to verify James Files' story:
just do a polygraph lie detector test. That reminded me of a book i once read from George O'Toole, a former CIA computer specialist. The book was in Dutch, but it was originally titled'The Assassination Tapes, an Electric Probe'. He investigated the assassination with a device called PSE, Psychological Stress Evaluator, a lie detector also capable of testing recorded conversations, because it investgated the human voice on stress,so it was also possible to say if someone was probably lying while you talked to him on the phone.
He even tested some recordings of L.H.Oswald, in which he stated'I haven't shot anybody, Sir' The conclusion was that L.H.Oswald spoke the truth when he siad this.
So why not do some research on James Files with it?

BTW, the Dutch title of the book was 'Bandopnamen onthullen een Moord, een electronisch onderzoek naar de moord op John F. Kennedy'

[Maarten Coumans]

To Roel,

Have you read the part about the wallet, and Alex Hidell's ID. Much stress as I recall. It has been 10 years or so that I read that book.

I got the impression that Oswald unfamiliar was with being linked to the name Hidell. He got upset, "You figure it out!" States that he never owned a firearm, and had shot nobody. No stress during talking claiming innocent. No powder-traces. The Hidell ID might give him the first impression about his situation during his interrigation. They can link all kinds of things to that name (a Mannlicher-Carcano for instance). I'm sure he has seen it done before to others. It is not new. Probably a name used During Bay of Pigs organisation, as printed on the leaflets for "Fair Play for Cuba Committee". From Bannister's office. There should be a payment trace to renting that office to Oswald. Money missing, money surfacing. Does not add up. He was nearly broke.

James witnessed the opening of Jack Ruby's envelope, returning from Fort Worth.
What if the envelope, as well, contained the ID to plant with Oswald, to link him to the name Hidell, to the rifle. How many more Hidell's would have been in that envelope, with a differend faces (kinda back-up patsy's). Holt died, so cannot tell.
With in the back of my mind that James and Oswald spend so much time together during the 10 days prior to the assassination, this happens: According to James, after the killing he was hassled by a person who "burned"a cop (JD Tippit), trying to stuff him with the murderweapon. They tried to get Oswald at the boarding house, but went wrong. Oswald went to the cinema (to meet a contact) was arrested, and found the ID. Seems to me that the arresting team of Oswald, and the killing team of Tippit earlier, were playing for the same club.
The team to kill Tippitt must have had the Hidell id to plant on Oswald after planned death near his boarding house.
That plan went wrong, because of Tippit's actions. So Oswald was arrested at the cinema, and had that ID planted on him during arrest, to make a link to the rifle, to the killing. Would they have had two id's with Hidell's name and Oswald's picture prepared? I think not.
So after the killing of Tippit the ID was passed to the arresting policeman at the cinema, to plant in his wallet to the police-station. The killer of Tippit went to Jimmy, who was about to start shooting again. So I assume this weapon has disappeared (river, whatever). And I think it is in the timeline unthinkable to kill Tippit, drive to Mesquite, and then back to the cinema. To stuff the gun on Oswald. All in an hour without Cell-phones.
But some whitnesses to the shooting had seen 2 people firing. Jimmy meets one "gun".
Could the other fireweapon, used to kill Tippit, have travelled the same way to the cinema as the Hidell ID? Making the end result as we know it. Kennedy and Tippit in one neat package. And Ruby to shuts up all questions. And the Cubans and Russians planned it all......?
If ballistics match with the revolver found on Oswald, as being used on Tippit, then there were paid helps in the DPolice, to insert the evidence with Oswald. And help in the cover-up of murder of one of their own, on top of the President's death. Pretty cynical.

Maarten

[Roel Mulder]

I have a lot of "old" books, books released in the sixties, when there were not so many critics of the Warren Omission. Sylvia Meagher's book, accessoiries After The Fact' was one of my first books which tackled the findings of that Commission.Th.Buchanan wrote 'Who Killed Kennedy", in Dutch 'Wie Vermoordden Kennedy", and he places the second gunman on the South Knoll, right next to the Overpass. This book was released in 1964! Remember what Tosh Plumlee said about a shot from the left[ behind] of him? So it is very well possible that James Files and C.NIcoletti were not the only shooters, there were probably more, without knowing about each others presence on Dealy Plaza.Pretty scary if you think about this.

[Maarten Coumans]

Roel Mulder wrote: So it is very well possible that James Files and C.NIcoletti were not the only shooters, there were probably more, without knowing about each others presence on Dealy Plaza.Pretty scary if you think about this.

That Nicoletti and James were not the only shooters, seems quite obvious to me.
James says about other shooters, and other investors, that it would be stupid to have that kind of info, in case he gets cought. That info would reside in higher places.
He is not a snitch. Must substanciate some of his story. So dead people are easier for him. He would not tell the name of one of Tippid's assassins, eventhough he wanted to stuff him with the gun used for that. Would James have realized what would have happened if he took the gun, Closed the door. And then, 1 minute later, the Dallas PD shows up? The show like Oswalds cinema theatre arrest, but then at a Mesquite Motel, taking in Files. Anyway he says he pulled the curtains before they drove off, did not want to know. So cannot tell.
He described some things, police officer was send back down the Knoll by "Security", who are officially not there.
He describes how he regularly checked the Plaza with his scope for people with guns, Packing. That would make things difficult. Already planning his getaway, in case he has to shoot. Since he did, we are discussing this. And ran people to the Knoll.
He mentioned some names, not sure if they were working. But I assume he considered them to be not a problem for his getaway. In other words, just watching. In the interview a beautiful example of human behaviour. About car crash, burning building attracting, while someone yelling "GUN" in a crows, leads to a stamppede. He knows the bussiness.

By the way, I think it is pretty brave to publish a second gunman on the knoll in 1964.

Maarten

[Bruce Patrick Brychek]

Dear Mr. Wim Dankbaar, Bob Fox, and Fellow JFK Fellow Members:05.25.2006 - Bob Fox Posted this interesting Post and Headline. Much research and study on several Subject Matters herein have developed further since this thread began.But I notice that many discussions that are constantly revisited were covered back then, some still developing, and some with more finality.For the Newer JFK Forum Members, and those of you who never reviewed this entire thread, you may find the discussions and points illuminating.Comments ?Respectfully,Bruce Patrick Brychek.

[barney 1961]

Members; In our considerations of shooters, shots fired, locations, is it not possible that a shooter up on the RR Overpass at the Northernaspect parallel to the picket fence would have a perfect view over the top of the Presidential limo to make a throat shot with a smallcaliber weapon?? If so, Files no doubt concentration on his target vehicle, would not of observed such shooter, who would have been hidinghis weapon until the target drove into range and sight. This shooter could easily have been stationed in a the storm sewer drain opening atthe crest of the knoll to the North of the end of the RR Overpass, and just slightly beyond the fence area. All of the culvert tops were looseand not bolted or welded down along the limo route as is the protocol for Presidential motorcades. Gordon Arnold alleges he was run out ofthis area before he could get to the RR Overpass by a man in a suit, who told him, you are not going to be in this area, get out now. Arnoldjust home from boot camp protested and the man flashed a badge, and said he was a CIA agent and so Arnold moved, but again this agentordered Arnold to move again from his second position behind the picket fence, so he alleges he wound up in front of the fence on the sidewalk leading up the knoll from Elm Street. He alleges a man wearing a police uniform but no hat, took his camera film and walkedaway quickly towards the western pergola area to the right of where Zapruder was filming from the flat elevated area nearby. Arnold saidthere were shots from behind the fence and came over his left shoulder and ear and almost deafened him so he fell to the ground until theshots stopped and the badgeman had taken his film. Jean Hill alleges that she saw this badgeman with a rifle at the top of the knoll andthe western pergola structure. Could this be the same man awaiting his escape ride in the trunk or behind the drivers seat before the areawas locked down by the DPD, and all cars were searched and license plate numbers were recorded on a long list, which has mysteriouslydisappeared from the DPD records.The throat shot appears in photographs a number of frames prior to the limo going behind the makeshift Stemmons Freeeway sign, whosepurpose was to shield the shooters positions as the motorcade drove at 10-11 mph into the deadly kill zone of triangulated crossfire. Yearsago, I read a book, perhaps On The Trail Of the Assassins, Jim Garrison, author, that a man and his wife lived in a mobile home near LakePontchatrain, who saw on numerous occasions before 11-22-1963, men who appeared Hispanic, Cuban, or bi-racial, taking target practicenot far from his home. They did stationary shootings, and near the end of these sessions, they began to shoot at coconuts, melons, on theend of a long board extending well beyond the tailgate end of an old pickup truck, gaining knowledge and experience shooting and hittingsmall moving targets.

[andries]

Î would love to believe Gordon Arnhold, his only fade support is Ralp yarboroughthe rest is never investigated at all,was he a soldier at all ?I gues his funny behavior and his wild scenario, spoiled everything and made him even more unbelievable.And perciesly for those reasons i would never have doubts about Ed hoffman scenario there,s scarysupport all over the place

[barney 1961]

If Gordon Arnold, now deceased, can be believed, he took high quality film of the motorcade as it drove into the field of fire in DealeyPlaza as the Presidential limo drove past the Stemmons Freeway sign, which would have added credence to the Zapruder film. It prettycommon knowledge that persons in the County Courts bldg. were observing people on both sides of Elm St. before and after the shootingand had their associates confiscate as many film strips and camera roll film as possible, most of which disappeared into the gaping blackhole of secrecy known euphemistically as, "National Security Secrets."I believe that costumes and facial makeup was employed by some associates, who were on site to watch and observe the behavior of thecops, the media photographers, spectators, and military intelligence personnel, who just happened to be on site as well.In the book, " The Man Who Knew Too Much,: about Richard Case Nagell, military intelligence corp, he said that he observed at least 7practically new Mannlicher Carcano rifles in the possession of CIA personnel during the runup to "Nov. 22, 1963 The Big Event." It is believedthat the job of Nagell was to befriend Oswald, either #1 Oswald, the imposter, or #2, the real LH Oswald. At the critical moment, one orboth of these Oswalds would be killed by Intelligence Officer Nagell, however, he had a severe panic attack with the knowledge that he toowas getting set up as" another patsy," so he entered a bank office and fired his pistol into the ceiling and sat down to await arrest by DallasPolice officers and transported to jail the day before the Big Event went down. So, more plan changes had to be implemented.

[andries]

I do think there was some kind of conspiracybut a sinister revolution on sutch a complex and grand scale is usualybetter off in the hands of agatha christy or alfred hitchcock,and mostly with a happy end.perhaps you read and believe to mutch