Documentaries To Watch?

[bob franklin]

Here is my point by point rebuttal to Seamus's reply I mean no offence to any member of this forum.point 1.) candidate: Nothing remotely ludicrous about this. ANYONE can be programmed to do anything - you, me Bob, Tom, or Wim. There's really no point in going to the crime & risk (even slightly) being found out When you can have the crime come to you. Simply employ some pretty young skirt (perhaps in a polkadot dress, for instance) to lure your intended candidate to a predetermined point of sequestering and go to work.point 2.) Lax coast guard: They were only being lax because they were ordered to do so. It worked for 15 hours.point 3.) (not mentioned in your reply) Fuel valve selector: This was found in the closed position, though no evidence of onboard fire was discovered. the selector has a lockout button, similar to that found on an automatic transmission shifter of an automobile. Deliberate effort is required to close this valve. It can't accidentally happen.point 4.) (not mentioned in your reply) Egypt Air 990: What are the odds of two identical crashes occurring within 50 miles & 100 days of each other.point 5). (not mentioned in your reply) Missing seat: As mentioned by John Hankey it is HIGHLY unlikely that jfk jr. would have flown that day without an instructor present. The seat where that Instructor would've been located is conveniently missing.I would personally recommend this documentary to Nick (or anyone else) if he hasn't yet seen it. It offers the only scenario thus far that holds any plausibility, IMHO.

[Michael Dell]

bob franklin wrote:I would personally recommend this documentary to Nick (or anyone else) if he hasn't yet seen it. It offers the only scenario thus far that holds any plausibility, IMHO.I agree with you, Bob. Here are just a few of the anomalies in the JFK Jr case...- 15 and a half hours to begin searching the crash site- missing flight log- missing voice recorder battery- missing seat- fuel valve being in the off position- the "disappearance" of official Coast Guard reports- the changing of the official story- the Pentagon assuming control of the press- disappearance of the flight instructor Also, here are key points from the NTSB radar analysis...- At 9:33PM plane descended from cruising altitude of 5500 feet. - At 9:38, plane makes slight turn to the right to line itself up with southern tip of Martha’s Vineyard, altitude at 3000 feet. - At 9:38:20, turn finished, plane stops its descent at 2200 feet. - At 9:38:50, plane brought back up to 2500 feet in accordance with FAA regulations. - At 9:39, about 5 minutes from landing, Jr contacted the tower. - At 9:40:15, plane plunges straight down, falling 2500 feet in 45 seconds, hitting the water at 200mph.The idea JFK Jr was some inexperienced pilot who somehow lost his horizon while flying at night is simply absurd. The radar analysis proves this. Whatever happened was a sudden and catastrophic event. And John Hankey's theory as to what happened fits better than most, and far better than the official story. And if anyone finds the idea of a Manchurian candidate "ludicrous," I would suggest researching the subject. The information is there, and it isn't hard to find.EDIT TO ADD: By the way, the reason why the Manchurian candidate idea fits better than simple sabotage is that all the plane's electrical systems were in proper working condition and there was no evidence of fire or explosions. Similarities with Egypt Flight 990, in which a pilot and presumed Manchurian candidate threw the plane into a nosedive and shut off the fuel injector valve, are also extremely alarming.

[SeamusCoogan]

bob franklin wrote:Here is my point by point rebuttal to Seamus's reply I mean no offence to any member of this forum.point 1.) candidate: Nothing remotely ludicrous about this. ANYONE can be programmed to do anything - you, me Bob, Tom, or Wim. There's really no point in going to the crime & risk (even slightly) being found out When you can have the crime come to you. Simply employ some pretty young skirt (perhaps in a polkadot dress, for instance) to lure your intended candidate to a predetermined point of sequestering and go to work.point 2.) Lax coast guard: They were only being lax because they were ordered to do so. It worked for 15 hours.point 3.) (not mentioned in your reply) Fuel valve selector: This was found in the closed position, though no evidence of onboard fire was discovered. the selector has a lockout button, similar to that found on an automatic transmission shifter of an automobile. Deliberate effort is required to close this valve. It can't accidentally happen.point 4.) (not mentioned in your reply) Egypt Air 990: What are the odds of two identical crashes occurring within 50 miles & 100 days of each other.point 5). (not mentioned in your reply) Missing seat: As mentioned by John Hankey it is HIGHLY unlikely that jfk jr. would have flown that day without an instructor present. The seat where that Instructor would've been located is conveniently missing.I would personally recommend this documentary to Nick (or anyone else) if he hasn't yet seen it. It offers the only scenario thus far that holds any plausibility, IMHO.Well the problem Bob, is that if you are in my field/ I work with a lot of good psychologists. Ive also had this discussion numerous times. Its actually very hard to program people and it would be very very hard to program you me or Bob. Thats the real rub.I have to ask why on earth were the budgets for MK Ultra all burnt by Richard Helms? It was very very expensive thats why. Was Ultra a failure well yes and no. They found the answers they were looking for however.The answers have come in a more round about way. If you read Richard Marks and others it would seem that the ideal candidate for an assassin is usually someone with impaired cognitive levels. Now thats either through head injury or congenital condition. Drug experimentation more often than not on the subjects rendered them passive. Now, thats not to dismiss a bad trip and the implications for a nut job like Charles Manson and cult behavior thats a very real phenomena. Lisa Pease has written some excellent stuff on that. Generally speaking however, people that join a cult group are susceptible to that style or have some kind of trauma and attachment issues. In many ways you could say outwardly normal yet with mass inner turmoil. This leads to a seeking of one true faith or answer that really does not exist. Its akin from what I know to be tunnel vision.Bob for sure you can bypass this of course by having someone indoctrinated at an early age. A good example is a child soldier in Uganda or a Hitler youth recruit. But the chances of forming someone with the capacity to fly a plane and be mind controlled is very very very difficult. Look into the infamous 'man of the mountain' and the hashishans (were the term assassin comes from). If you ask any pilot (and yes luckily I know some as well). They have to negotiate a number of factors physical and mental. Stuff like height, navigation, altitude and now don't worry about auto pilot. This is the stuff they have to go through before they even fly an airliner or an F-16 (I may have put the order in reverse) in a trainer plane. 9/11 make what you want! People with that level of functional IQ are usually not in any way prime candidates for such things. Theres just to much going on. If they are they are of good intelligence and into like say Heavens Gate they usually faced some form of trauma or issue thats never come to light for what ever reason. Now I am not saying its impossible to terra form a mind. Hell I mean look at the fact I wanna eat McDonalds and be sold crap I don't need. lol. But this is subliminal and not overt. Killing is an overt act, and from what I can re collect even Jim Marr's (whose work I struggle with every now and again) would probably echo the same opinions. Furthermore, look at the reactions from people who have been submitted to MK Ultra stuff. They have mass memory lapses and feelings of distance and unreality. They also have ended up for the most part living normal (if disturbed lives) at the core of their fears is a yearning for normal human interaction friends and family. Note their are no feelings of exclusiveness or superiority. Pure killers do not usually have feelings of equality and if expressed at all are usually superficial or very very jumbled. The human mind is a very complex piece of equipment. The more cluttered it is and the more one experiences life on multiple levels good, bad, win, lose and the more easily your mind accepts these realities it seems the harder you are to break down.As for JFK jr. I don't even pretend to know what happened. Like I say Bob F, my friend. Its very easy to screw with a plane and the coastguard for what ever reason (hell they could have been lax due to pay offs or what have you note I said lax with any possibility in mind). But i prefer to play a very safe game, and if it was an assassination it need not be fanciful. I think if You wanna look at a possible Manchurian candidate scenario look at Mark David Chapman or Sirhan Sirhan. Now thats creepy! As for Hankey, after his work I just cannot trust him on anything. Least of all JFK jr. If you wanna read good JFK junior stuff check out what Lisa Pease has written it's nice simple and best of all safe as hell.

[Phil Dragoo]

Len Colby:http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index ... try182245I have Marks' Search for Manchurian Candidate. But, no, I lost my copy of Catcher in the Rye. I had it right next to my reloading equipment. Newspaper taxis arrived on the shore. The rest isRight. John the younger not so fraught with anomaly as KAL 007. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-artic ... n?id=75TWA 800 was inadvertantly mentioned in a handful of terrorist incidents considered by Clinton, Albright, Berger, Cohen et al. Oh wait--that was the center fuel tank (wink wink). http://www.amazon.com/Downing-TWA-Fligh ... sim_b_2And of course pay no attention to John Doe Number Two--not when we're reelecting President Is-Is http://www.jaynadavis.com/

[SeamusCoogan]

[quote="Phil Dragoo"]Len Colby:http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index ... try182245I have Marks' Search for Manchurian Candidate. But, no, I lost my copy of Catcher in the Rye. I had it right next to my reloading equipment. Newspaper taxis arrived on the shore. The rest isRight. John the younger not so fraught with anomaly as KAL 007. http://www.airliners.net/aviation-artic ... n?id=75TWA 800 was inadvertantly mentioned in a handful of terrorist incidents considered by Clinton, Albright, Berger, Cohen et al. Oh wait--that was the center fuel tank (wink wink). http://www.amazon.com/Downing-TWA-Fligh ... sim_b_2And of course pay no attention to John Doe Number Two--not when we're reelecting President Is-Is http://www.jaynadavis.com/[/quote]Phil how easy or hard do you make it? I think its very very weird.

[kenmurray]

Nov 22 and the Warren Report 1964:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI8Vp9Zyfp8See how Cronkite and Rather are promoting the lone nut theory:

[Bob]

Speaking of CBS, did everyone here see The Insider, starring Russell Crowe and Al Pacino? It tells the story about how a big tobacco insider becomes a whistleblower on 60 Minutes, but CBS refuses to run his appearance because of corporate pressure from big tobacco. Finally, they run the episode, after the story is leaked to The New York Times, by another insider, this time from CBS. That episode led to a $246 BILLION dollar settlement by big tobacco. But it took ENORMOUS pressure for CBS to actually tell the truth.In terms of the Manchurian Candidate scenario, history has given us some pretty obvious examples. How about this list?RFK is assassinated in 1968, by a pretty obvious MC scenario with Sirhan Sirhan and others. George Wallace is almost assassinated in 1972 by Arthur Bremer. Then the madness resumes around 1980 when John Lennon is murdered by Mark David Chapman and in 1981 when Ronald Reagan was almost assassinated by John Hinckley. Call them MCs or lone nuts or whatever. But Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman and Hinckley all had the same odd behavior and characteristics. So who is responsible for this? Three letters...CIA.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i46RI2twVao

[Michael Dell]

Bob wrote:Call them MCs or lone nuts or whatever. But Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman and Hinckley all had the same odd behavior and characteristics. So who is responsible for this? Three letters...CIA.Agreed.And this brings up another interesting connection to Hollywood. Are movies like "The Manchurian Candidate" made to warn people or to further hinder any exploration of truth? Now whenever someone mentions the idea of a Manchurian Candidate, people scoff and think it's nothing more than fictional movie nonsense. It creates an uphill battle for anyone interested in truth. Of course, John Frankenheimer, the director of the original 1962 Manchurian Candidate film, was good pals with RFK. He even drove RFK to the Ambassador Hotel on the night of his murder. Just one of those fascinating historical twists...

[Bob]

Michael Dell wrote:Bob wrote:Call them MCs or lone nuts or whatever. But Sirhan, Bremer, Chapman and Hinckley all had the same odd behavior and characteristics. So who is responsible for this? Three letters...CIA.Agreed.And this brings up another interesting connection to Hollywood. Are movies like "The Manchurian Candidate" made to warn people or to further hinder any exploration of truth? Now whenever someone mentions the idea of a Manchurian Candidate, people scoff and think it's nothing more than fictional movie nonsense. It creates an uphill battle for anyone interested in truth. Of course, John Frankenheimer, the director of the original 1962 Manchurian Candidate film, was good pals with RFK. He even drove RFK to the Ambassador Hotel on the night of his murder. Just one of those fascinating historical twists...Randy Bednorz talks about Frankenheimer and Richard Condon quite a bit in the thread Operation Zipper as he discusses many things including getting in the mind of David Atlee Phillips. Here is one of his takes...Another point I made provides a good analogy. I say that it is significant that Oswald is only two or three degrees of association away from the Hollywood milieu that made "Manchurian Candidate." In no way do I pursue much the idea that Richard Condon or John Frankenheimer were "conspirators." They just wrote the book and made the movie, and if they knew of CIA involvement in these things, they most likely assumed that they were "doing good." The significance is in Phillips' knowledge about a propaganda project; his real-time knowledge about when the film would be released; his real-time construct of Oswald to be a sow's-ear counterpart to the fictional silk-purse of the movie's hypno-assassin.Here is another interesting take by Randy...THEORY: Phillips had associations -- direct or indirect -- with Condon going back to 1954. Phillips was aware of a project to transform the book into the [Frankenheimer] movie as early as 1959. Phillips may already have had an idea of a propaganda application that depended on the timing of the movie, the establishment of its myth about brainwashing and a "monster plot." He did, after all, know about Angleton's "briefings," and probably attended one or more of them -- and there were probably jokes circulating among CIA colleagues about Angleton's views. So he may have conceived of an assassination plot to kill a president and use the fictional plot as a cover-story even before the Bay of Pigs. Motive surfaces from the Bay of Pigs, and new motives would arise as other possible conspirators became discontent. The Missile Crisis, with the timing of the movie, the post-crisis implications for the Cuba projects and other factors would increase the likelihood of an assassination plot, and there was plenty of time to prepare Oswald as the patsy.The preparation of Oswald seems to apply the Pygmalion myth to fit a mirror image of the hypno-assassin in Condon's book. Boiled down to its essentials, Phillips had an idea from a book; the book leads to a movie; the timing of the movie release and its plot suggests a script for an organized act of terrorism; the organized act of terrorism has elements that forge the signature of a communist or an agent of either KGB or Castro on the perpetrator.

[tom jeffers]

SeamusCoogan wrote:Phil Dragoo wrote:http://jfkmurdersolved.com/phpBB3/viewt ... 776#thanks, i enjoyedtom