Chauncey Holt

[Clemens Lowenstein]

Wim, some time ago you opened up a subforum dedicated to Chauncey Holt, one of the three tramps. I was wondering then, if some big news were coming.

What was this about? Is something in the works?

I was also wondering, what Holt had said about the three supposedly "real" tramps Gus Abrams, John F. Gedney and Harold Doyle.

[dankbaar]

Well, Karyn Holt wanted to make an effort to publicize her father's story and work actively with me on that. But meanwhile she seems to have abandoned that idea. I have not talked to her for a while.

Wim

[ChristophMessner]

Any news from her, about what here father did behind the picket fence when he had not joined the other raliway tramps yet?

[JDThomas]

I must admit that I cannot make my mind up about Holt. Much of what he has said seems very plausable, but his information about his activities that day in Dallas only sound like half a story. I am still mystified why they'd disguise themselves as tramps (just to deliver id's), armed with guns and radios and hole-up in an area where they'd likely be picked-up - "does this make sense to you? - I suggest that it does not" - unless he along with the other tramps were being set-up if something else went wrong or were to be used as a diversion.At the same time he gives some good detail, gives names and times and was prepared to implicate people. We must not forget however that he had strong CIA and mob links and so could just as easily be supplying disinformation - the best lies contain more than 50% of the truth.For his authenticity as a tramp, I think we need further coroboration by an addition facial recognition expert. I know Holt provided 1960's photos for comparision and volunteered to confront the arresting officer, but more is needed to convince the public at large.I have been far more interested in what Holt said about his testing of Carcano rifles and the experiments with Sabot projectiles, which as he stated present no end of possibilities for confusing ballistics analysts ("some of which ended up in Texas"). I don't like speculating, but for example, this would be an excellent method to fire a bullet seemingly from a junk rifle (e.g. a Carcano), but actually firing it from a decent rifle (e.g. a Mauser). Lay a trail to a rifle that never got used. If Holt told some, if not all of the truth, the gun/ammunition experiments could be the clue to the real truth.

[Bob]

JD, you bring up some valid points. Holt and for that matter Files, both remind me of the "death bed confession" of E. Howard Hunt. Was there some truth in what he said? Absolutely. But there are missing pieces because he was trying to protect people. I think the same holds true about Holt and Files. By the way, I think Holt was on the list of possible patsies that ended up being Oswald. I think all of the tramps were possible patsies. Harrelson and Rogers as well. Don't forget about the explosives that were on the train as well. Files recently told of his meeting with Lansdale just before the assassination. It took several years for Files to admit that, and even then he was VERY careful about how he worded it. But there are still pieces of the puzzle that need to be explained. For instance...a spotter for Files. In Black Ops, every shooting team has a spotter. Yet Files said he fired by himself. I don't believe that, even with all the fake Secret Service people near the knoll. So who was the spotter?

[Pasquale DiFabrizio]

JDThomas wrote:I must admit that I cannot make my mind up about Holt. Much of what he has said seems very plausable, but his information about his activities that day in Dallas only sound like half a story. I am still mystified why they'd disguise themselves as tramps (just to deliver id's), armed with guns and radios and hole-up in an area where they'd likely be picked-up - "does this make sense to you? - I suggest that it does not" - unless he along with the other tramps were being set-up if something else went wrong or were to be used as a diversion.At the same time he gives some good detail, gives names and times and was prepared to implicate people. We must not forget however that he had strong CIA and mob links and so could just as easily be supplying disinformation - the best lies contain more than 50% of the truth.For his authenticity as a tramp, I think we need further coroboration by an addition facial recognition expert. I know Holt provided 1960's photos for comparision and volunteered to confront the arresting officer, but more is needed to convince the public at large.I have been far more interested in what Holt said about his testing of Carcano rifles and the experiments with Sabot projectiles, which as he stated present no end of possibilities for confusing ballistics analysts ("some of which ended up in Texas"). I don't like speculating, but for example, this would be an excellent method to fire a bullet seemingly from a junk rifle (e.g. a Carcano), but actually firing it from a decent rifle (e.g. a Mauser). Lay a trail to a rifle that never got used. If Holt told some, if not all of the truth, the gun/ammunition experiments could be the clue to the real truth.Very good points! I tend to believe Holt, but an additional facial recognition expert wouldn't hurt. Although, Lois Gibson, who was the facial recognition expert, IS in the Guiness Book of World Records for her work, so she's not just any facial recognition expert.I also agree about the rifles. Did you see the other topic where Christoph implicated Truly, the TSBD manager? That information seems to indicate that there were people on the fifth floor, the same floor that Hoover "mistakenly" referred to as where Oswald was in his phone conversation with Johnson.

[neab]

I haven't researched much about the 3 tramps, I do remember that french guy who claimed that 2 of 3 of them were french, and he mentioned names, but i forget. He also said the guy with the hat (the one holt claimed to be) was american. This probably isn't all that insightful, but just wanted to chime in that holt being one of the tramp corroborates other people's stories/opinions/findings more than say harrelson imo.

[ChristophMessner]

JDThomas wrote:I must admit that I cannot make my mind up about Holt. Much of what he has said seems very plausable, but his information about his activities that day in Dallas only sound like half a story. I am still mystified why they'd disguise themselves as tramps (just to deliver id's), armed with guns and radios and hole-up in an area where they'd likely be picked-up - "does this make sense to you? - I suggest that it does not" - unless he along with the other tramps were being set-up if something else went wrong or were to be used as a diversion. I think so, too. JDThomas wrote: At the same time he gives some good detail, gives names and times and was prepared to implicate people. We must not forget however that he had strong CIA and mob links and so could just as easily be supplying disinformation - the best lies contain more than 50% of the truth. Very well said. JDThomas wrote: For his authenticity as a tramp, I think we need further coroboration by an addition facial recognition expert. I know Holt provided 1960's photos for comparision and volunteered to confront the arresting officer, but more is needed to convince the public at large. If it is Hunt at the Cancellare photo, than Hunt could not be the tramp, cause would Hunt have had the opportunity to change clothes while so many people around there already? Anyway Hunt lookes like having some clothes underneath on the Cancellare photo. And Holt really does not tell all in his deathbed confession. JDThomas wrote: I have been far more interested in what Holt said about his testing of Carcano rifles and the experiments with Sabot projectiles, which as he stated present no end of possibilities for confusing ballistics analysts ("some of which ended up in Texas"). I don't like speculating, but for example, this would be an excellent method to fire a bullet seemingly from a junk rifle (e.g. a Carcano), but actually firing it from a decent rifle (e.g. a Mauser). Lay a trail to a rifle that never got used. If Holt told some, if not all of the truth, the gun/ammunition experiments could be the clue to the real truth. You mean, one of the tramps shot with a Mauser from behind the fence? Bob wrote:JD, you bring up some valid points. Holt and for that matter Files, both remind me of the "death bed confession" of E. Howard Hunt. Was there some truth in what he said? Absolutely. But there are missing pieces because he was trying to protect people. I think the same holds true about Holt and Files. By the way, I think Holt was on the list of possible patsies that ended up being Oswald. I think all of the tramps were possible patsies. Harrelson and Rogers as well. Don't forget about the explosives that were on the train as well. Files recently told of his meeting with Lansdale just before the assassination. It took several years for Files to admit that, and even then he was VERY careful about how he worded it. But there are still pieces of the puzzle that need to be explained. For instance...a spotter for Files. In Black Ops, every shooting team has a spotter. Yet Files said he fired by himself. I don't believe that, even with all the fake Secret Service people near the knoll. So who was the spotter? Yes. All of them possible patsies. Sounds convincing. So you don't believe Files took the fatal shot? So you believe he was the spotter? Pasquale DiFabrizio wrote: I tend to believe Holt, but an additional facial recognition expert wouldn't hurt. ... indicate that there were people on the fifth floor There is one photo, where the "old" tramp definitely has a brider head than Holt has and you see that he was younger. ... Don't forget, if strange persons would have had to travel down the west elevators after the shooting, the plotters would have had to care for nobody seeing them leaving the elevator then. neab wrote:I haven't researched much about the 3 tramps, I do remember that french guy who claimed that 2 of 3 of them were french, and he mentioned names, but i forget. He also said the guy with the hat (the one holt claimed to be) was american. This probably isn't all that insightful, but just wanted to chime in that holt being one of the tramp corroborates other people's stories/opinions/findings more than say harrelson imo. I think the old tramp only either can be Holt or Hunt. The tall tramp looks very very much like Harrelson and nobody else with this high forehead. And Charles Rogers (Montoya) pretty much looks like a french one.

[Bob]

Bob wrote:JD, you bring up some valid points. Holt and for that matter Files, both remind me of the "death bed confession" of E. Howard Hunt. Was there some truth in what he said? Absolutely. But there are missing pieces because he was trying to protect people. I think the same holds true about Holt and Files. By the way, I think Holt was on the list of possible patsies that ended up being Oswald. I think all of the tramps were possible patsies. Harrelson and Rogers as well. Don't forget about the explosives that were on the train as well. Files recently told of his meeting with Lansdale just before the assassination. It took several years for Files to admit that, and even then he was VERY careful about how he worded it. But there are still pieces of the puzzle that need to be explained. For instance...a spotter for Files. In Black Ops, every shooting team has a spotter. Yet Files said he fired by himself. I don't believe that, even with all the fake Secret Service people near the knoll. So who was the spotter?Yes. All of them possible patsies. Sounds convincing. So you don't believe Files took the fatal shot? So you believe he was the spotter?- ChrisNo...I think Files was a shooter, but I also believe he had a spotter. I can't see Lansdale being the guy, but he was probably close by. Perhaps Gary Marlow...the guy who shot Tippit and then met Files at his motel afterward. Marlow and Files were very good friends back in the Chicago area and were in a wedding party together.

[ThomZajac]

How confident are you guys that Files was a shooter, and that he shot from where he said he did, and that it was his shot that entered at the right temple?