What if? - Oswald didnt get the job at the TSBD?

[mike oneill]

Ive had this question on my mind for 45 years - any one else got any thoughts about this?Let me explain - we know that LHO got the job at the TSBD 7 weeks prior to the Motorcade.He seems to have got it by pure chance.Ruth Paine (who was lodging the Oswalds) just happened to mention to a near neighbour that Lee was looking for a job. The neighbour happened to mention that there were often jobs going at the TSBD.Ruth mentioned that fact to Lee and he went down there for an interview with Mr Truly and got the job.Its either all these additional 3 people were ALSO part of a conspircay, or - he got the job purely by coincidence.So there was the chance that Oswald might not ever got himself placed inside the TSBD - so what would have happened then i wonder??????? How could the assassination have proceeded without the Patsy in place?But i have to say, I really struggle to accept that these 3 additional people were ALSO part of the conspiracy - thats another 3 people who could by now have spilt the beans!!None of the 3 have ever said that they got tapped on the shoulder by dark forces telling them to take part in the above actions.So - was it absolute pure chance he got the job??RegardsMike O'Neill

[Bob]

It was NOT a coincidence that Oswald got a job at the TSBD. First of all, by all appearances and documents, Oswald was an intelligence operative for the CIA. Oswald was in the Louisiana Civil Air Patrol. The LCAP was always considered to be a CIA breeding ground. Other LCAP members include David Ferrie, Charles Rogers (one of the three tramps) and Barry Seal (the biggest drug runner in CIA history). The founder of the LCAP was D.H. Byrd. Byrd was also a big oil guy that was close to people like LBJ and was in the Dallas Petroleum Club with folks like George DeMohrenshildt, David Atlee Phillips and Poppy Bu$h. Oh yeah, Byrd also just happened to own the TSBD on 11/22/1963. Enough coincidences for you?

[bob franklin]

As to Ruth Paine, her husband worked for Bell Helicopter (a known CIA holding, they produced helicopters for the Vietnam war).Ruth Paine:http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JF ... ulec11.htm

[Jsnow915]

I always had a feeling that the Paines were involved somehow...just a gut feeling.

[Bob]

Also, the Paine's were introduced to the Oswald's by George DeMohrenshildt. You know, the guy who committed suicide (yeah right) with Poppy' Bu$h's telephone number and address in his address book just before his was supposed to testify before the HSCA. Who was the CIA director at that time then? You know, the guy who stopped all cooperation with the HSCA...Poppy Bu$h. Others were killed as well during that time period, including Sam Giancana, Chuck Nicoletti and Johnny Roselli. Also, when Barry Seal was murdered, he also died with Poppy Bu$h's telephone number in his vehicle at the time of his death.

[Jsnow915]

with Barry Seal and George Dewhatever having Poppy's number on them....makes you wonder if someone was trying to set Georgie Sr up..too bad it didn't work.

[Bob]

Jsnow915 wrote:with Barry Seal and George Dewhatever having Poppy's number on them....makes you wonder if someone was trying to set Georgie Sr up..too bad it didn't work.I makes me wonder if Poppy was trying to shut THEM up. Files knew about Poppy in Group 40, which was an assassination group for the CIA. Seal was there in those days too. Seal did most of his drug running in the Iran/Contra days, in which Poppy was the ringleader, while Ronny Reagan napped. Poppy also helped arm Osama bin Laden against the Soviets in Afghanistan and also helped arm Saddam vs. the Iranians in the 1980's. Friends then, enemies now. Both situations involved the Bu$h family and their friends getting rich. Finally, it's so clear what happened when Watergate took place. Nixon ordered the break-in because he was worried that the DNC had the goods on him and others about the JFK assassination. Nixon then has to resign, and who is now President? Jerry Ford, who Nixon persuaded LBJ to also put on the Warren Commission. By the way, Prescott Bu$h (Poppy's daddy) was a political mentor to both Nixon and Ford, and they basically became puppets for him. Ford then pardons Nixon and named Poppy Bu$h as CIA director when the heat from the HSCA started hetting warm. Bu$h then refuses to cooperate with the HSCA and all sorts of witnesses are murdered. Coincidences? I think not.

[Brian White]

Ruth Paine and her husband are definitely implicated,Mike. Theywere both in the White Russian community and were friends ofDeMohrenschildt. They've both been linked to the CIA,also. And asBob pointed out,all of them are linked to D.H. Byrd, owner of the TSBD. Byrd is linked to David Ferrie, who knew Oswald at least asfar back as 1955, when they were both in the same unit of the Louisiana CAP. The intricate planning of the assassination reallyboggles the mind! The more I learn, the more amazing, and fright-ening, the whole thing gets.

[John Beckham]

Ruth and Michael Paine were instrumental in setting up Lee in many ways. Both Paine's family members were known within the State Department and branches of the intelligence community before 1963. Michael Paine's stepfather, Arthur Young, helped to invented the Bell helicopter. In 1941, just before the US entered into W.W.II, Larry Bell saw...a small [helicopter] model crafted by inventor and philosophy student, Arthur Middleton Young. In just six months, the team designed and constructed the first Bell helicopter, designing and fabricating parts as they went and solving problems with the use of mathematics, model experiments, intuition and trial-and-error. The first helicopter was officially designated the Model 30. In 1958, Michael began work for Bell Helicopter in Ft. Worth under Walter Dornberger. His mother, Ruth Forbes Paine Young, was a close friend of Mary Bancroft. Bancroft worked with Allen Dulles as a spy during World War II in Switzerland, and was the CIA Director under Eisenhower. Bancroft also became Dulles' friend and lover. She herself called Ruth Forbes, "a very good friend of mine." This may explain why the Paines were the most oft questioned witnesses to appear before the Commission. After his marriage to Ruth they settled in Irving. The couple were both active members of the ACLU. Ruth Paine's father was William Avery Hyde. The HSCA linked her father to George DeMohrenschildt as both belonging to the mysterious group ICA ( an international, non governmental organization to foster the growth of consumer cooperatives world wide) Just one month after the Warren Report was issued, Hyde received a three-year government contract from the Agency for International Development (AID). He became their regional adviser for all of Latin America. AID was riddled with CIA operatives. To the point that some called it an extension of the Agency. Hyde's reports were forwarded both to the State Department and the CIA. DeMohrenschildt took Lee to obtain a job at Nationwide Insurance (where Ruth Paine's father worked) located at the Southland Bldg. downtown Dallas. Ruth's older sister Sylvia Hyde Hoke, was living in Falls Church, Virginia in 1963. Ruth stayed with Sylvia in September of 1963 while traveling across country. Falls Church adjoins Langley, which was then the new headquarters of the CIA, a prized project of Allen Dulles. It was from Falls Church that Ruth Paine journeyed to New Orleans to pick up Marina. After she picked Marina up, she deposited her in her home in Irving, separating Marina from Lee at the time of the assassination. John Hoke, Sylvia's husband, also worked for AID. And her sister Sylvia worked directly for the CIA itself. By the time of Ruth's visit, Sylvia had been employed by the Agency for eight years. In regards to this interestingly timed visit to her sister, Jim Garrison asked Ruth some pointed questions when she appeared before a grand jury in 1968. He first asked her if she knew her sister had a file that was classified at that time in the National Archives. Ruth replied she did not. In fact, she was not aware of any classification matter at all. When asked if she had any idea why it was being kept secret, Ruth replied that she didn't. Then Garrison asked Ruth if she knew which government agency Sylvia worked for. The uninquiring Ruth said she did not know. This is the same woman who was seen at the National Archives pouring through her files in 1976, when the House Select Committee was gearing up. Ruth does "missionary" work in Nicaragua. When Marina was called before the grand jury, a citizen asked her if she still associated with Ruth Paine. Marina replied that she didn't. When asked why not, she stated that it was upon the advice of the SS. She then elaborated on this by explaining that they had told her it would look bad if the public found out the "connection between me and Ruth and CIA." An assistant DA then asked, "In other words, you were left with the distinct impression that she was in some way connected with the CIA?" Marina replied simply, "Yes." In 1963 Michael left the family home and moved into an apartment in Grand Prairie, it was a "friendly estrangement". Ruth launched an aggressive campaign to insert herself in the Oswald's life. She called on Marina, and not visa versa. Michael agreed to continue to support Ruth, and his children. But interestingly enough he has also agreed to contribute to the upkeep of Marina financially. The Paines insured the continued separation of Lee and Marina, allowing Lee to live unencumbered, and with no witnesses to his activities or associates during the principal time leading up to the assassination. Secondly, they provided a storage space for evidence that would be used against him. Almost everything that would convict him in the public mind, including the alleged murder weapon, came out of the Paine's garage. Also found in the garage, among other things, was the Walker photograph, the backyard photograph, the Klein's Sporting Goods tear-out order for the rifle, among other things. Why would Lee, supposedly intending to commit a crime, would allow such items to be stored in another's garage, instead of destroying the incriminating evidence. Michael's testimony is used to confirm that Lee had a rifle, and indeed it had been stored in their garage, in retrospect, of course, because Michael said he never realized it was a rifle. Hosty said Ruth told him Lee was "a very illogical person and that he had told her that weekend that he was a 'Trotskyite Communist.'" Ruth knew that Lee was connected to the CIA through someone in her family. Her family had strong ties to the intelligence community. What was not accounted for was that a sexual relationship developed between Ruth and Marina. When Dallas Police searched the Paine home after the assassination they found a commercial pornographic film depicting acts of lesbianism. Ruth "I certainly never saw them. I don't know what they thought they found." The police also found "Operating Manual for Sears Tower Automatic Projector No. 9885." On page 17 of the description of items found in the Paine home items J and K are marked DELETED. On November 26, 1963, S.A. Warren C. Debrueys informed SAC Gordon Shanklin: "Movie reels in possession of Dallas Pd on November 24, 1963, and November 25, 1963, as result of seizure by search warrant from the home of Ruth Paine, November 23, 1963...were reviewed and bore no pertinence to instant case." The National Archives reported: " After an extensive search we cannot locate this film in the JFK collection." The movie reels were probably returned to Ruth. The FBI explored the possibility that Ruth was a lesbian, however, it found no evidence and excised any indications of Bureau interest: "Stratton related that he had no reason to consider that Paine was a sex pervert or in this way involved with either of the Oswalds." Some correspondence between Ruth and Marina contained veiled references to lesbianism. Ruth's testimony pinpoints the time for placing the weapon in Lee's hands. She testified that on the night before the assassination Lee showed up unexpectedly at her house to visit. Lee's usually visited his family on weekends starting friday nights... So during the course of the evening, Ruth comes in after dinner, she goes into the garage and finds that the light had been left on. Ruth tells the Warren Commission that she would never leave the light on. So therefore Lee must have been in the garage to retrieve some of his belongings. This allows the Warren Commission to infer that this was the moment that Lee got his gun. But the only thing that this testimony really tells us for sure is that Ruth was in the garage. Although the Paines probably did not participate in a plot to kill the president, they may have been withholding evidence about Lee. Robert Oswald himself claimed, right after the assassination, that he felt Michael knew more about that event than he was revealing. According to fellow worker, Dave Noel, Michael discussed the "character of assassins" a few hours before President Kennedy was killed. He also returned to his home in Irving at 3.00 p.m. to find Dallas police officers searching the premises. He told the police "As soon as I found out about it, I hurried over to see if I could help." Michael was overheard talking to his wife on the phone. He said that he was sure that Lee had killed Kennedy. He added: "We both know who is responsible." Buddy Walthers took part in the search of the Paine home, and, told Eric Tagg that they "found six or seven metal filing cabinets full of letters, maps, records and index cards with names of pro-Castro sympathizers." James DiEugenio has argued that this "cinches the case that the Paines were domestic surveillance agents in the Cold War against communism." So, after the Paine's take in the Oswald's, Lee goes to New Orleans to play double agent in the pro-Castro, anti-Castro groups? What are the odds? Then, when it's time for the Oswald's to come back to Texas, Ruth visits her CIA sister then picks up Marina. Lee supposedly will wait for a check to come, but goes to Mexico, telling Marina to tell no one! Then Ruth "discovers" a job for Lee at the TSBD? The Paine's were playing Lee, and he might have been playing them back? A work friend of Michael, Frank Krystinik, told the Warren Commission about how he reacted when he heard the news that Tippit had been killed: "We heard that Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after that that it came through that the Lee fellow had been captured, had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing. He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten." Jim Garrison later suggested that the Paines might have been involved in setting Lee up as the "patsy". Garrison points out that Paine's father " had been employed by the Agency for International Development, regarded by many as a source of cover for the C.I.A. Her brother-in-law was employed by the same agency in the Washington, D.C. area." He also claims that he had tried to "examine the income tax returns of Ruth and Michael, but I was told that they had been classified as secret.... What was so special about this particular family that made the federal government so protective of it?" Why did Ruth make the notation "LHO purchase of rifle" on the March 1963 page of her Hallmark pocket calendar? Marina said she had never told Ruth or Michael that Lee owned a rifle. She does not believe that he ever told either of them that he owned one. She does not believe that either of the Paine's knew that Lee had a rifle although she is not positive of this. Marina classified Ruth as a very talkative person and one to whom you could not tell a secret because she could not keep a secret. She said Ruth was not the type of person to whom you would tell things to. De Mohrenschildt said Lee was a patsy. In 1969, gun-runner Lauren Hall told him that he was offered $50,000 to participate in the assassination. In the same year, De Mohrenschildt told a friend he thought H.L. Hunt was behind the assassination and added that he was the link between Hunt and Lee. Hunt had run paramilitary operations before, using CIA men. His assistants heard him say he would like to see Jack shot and that the country would be better off without him.

[Brian White]

A sexual relationship between Ruth and Marina? What was your source for all this information, conspiracybuff?