Is this possible for 17 y.o. boy to be sent to Laos?

[kenmurray]

Barney, I have Henry Hurt's book too. It's an interesting one as he goes in to great detail about Oswald's early years in the chapter "Fingerprints Of Intelligence". Then he has the chapter about the confession of Robert Easterling who told Hurt that he was a low-level conspirator in the JFK murder. I think the whole Easterling confession is bogus. As Hurt describes, Easterling was "a multiple felon, an ex-convict. a raging alcoholic, a diagnosed psychotic and schizophrenic.

[Robert Wagner]

I joined the Marine Corps at 16, in 1960, but couldn't go on active duty (start boot camp) until I was 17. The age limit for Marine Corps, Navy and Coast Guard was 17; it was 18.5 for Army and Air Force. They didn't accept parent's signature, they checked birth certificate. Moreover, they checked again during boot camp. They caught two guys in my boot camp platoon who somehow got in at 16, kicked them out right away. Files couldn't have gotten into the Army at 17 unless he had a forged birth certificate.Files said he was in Operation White Star in Laos, then trained Bay of Pigs soldiers in Florida. But Bay of Pigs happened in 1961, a year BEFORE White Star began (under that name) in 1962. It's possible he's telling the truth. He could have been in White Star in 1962, at age 20, then joined Interpen, who were training in the Everglades in 1962, a year after the Bay of Pigs failure. They were busted by the FBI in late '62 whereupon they moved to No Name Key FL, where they continued training through 1963. Interpen wasn't the 1961 Bay of Pigs team, which had trained in Guatemala; it was a group of cowboy mercenaries and misfits run by Gerry Hemming and the CIA that was going to invade Cuba AGAIN, and get it right. White Star was run by Army Special Forces (green berets), not 82nd Airborne, but included individuals from other units and branches in technical and support roles, especially aviation. Special Ops has more prestige and pride than Airborne. If Files had become a green beret, he would have said so. My guess is he was on a helicopter carrying supplies to them, embellished the story to make himself one of the trainers (Mobile Training Team (MTT)). Being in Marine Recon in southeast Asia in 1962, I knew guys like Files (Sutton). It's quite plausible and within character that he joined Hemming after getting kicked out of the Army. Cowboys were in demand then. We were trying to sign up with Aramco in Saudi Arabia; Israel tried to recruit two of us.

[Bob]

Robert Wagner wrote:I joined the Marine Corps at 16, in 1960, but couldn't go on active duty (start boot camp) until I was 17. The age limit for Marine Corps, Navy and Coast Guard was 17; it was 18.5 for Army and Air Force. They didn't accept parent's signature, they checked birth certificate. Moreover, they checked again during boot camp. They caught two guys in my boot camp platoon who somehow got in at 16, kicked them out right away. Files couldn't have gotten into the Army at 17 unless he had a forged birth certificate.Files said he was in Operation White Star in Laos, then trained Bay of Pigs soldiers in Florida. But Bay of Pigs happened in 1961, a year BEFORE White Star began (under that name) in 1962. It's possible he's telling the truth. He could have been in White Star in 1962, at age 20, then joined Interpen, who were training in the Everglades in 1962, a year after the Bay of Pigs failure. They were busted by the FBI in late '62 whereupon they moved to No Name Key FL, where they continued training through 1963. Interpen wasn't the 1961 Bay of Pigs team, which had trained in Guatemala; it was a group of cowboy mercenaries and misfits run by Gerry Hemming and the CIA that was going to invade Cuba AGAIN, and get it right. White Star was run by Army Special Forces (green berets), not 82nd Airborne, but included individuals from other units and branches in technical and support roles, especially aviation. Special Ops has more prestige and pride than Airborne. If Files had become a green beret, he would have said so. My guess is he was on a helicopter carrying supplies to them, embellished the story to make himself one of the trainers (Mobile Training Team (MTT)). Being in Marine Recon in southeast Asia in 1962, I knew guys like Files (Sutton). It's quite plausible and within character that he joined Hemming after getting kicked out of the Army. Cowboys were in demand then. We were trying to sign up with Aramco in Saudi Arabia; Israel tried to recruit two of us.Welcome to the forum Robert. Did you ever see what Jim Marrs wrote about Jimmy Files being in White Star? Here is what he wrote...HOW DID FILES FIND OUT ABOUT THE "WHITE STAR" TEAMS IN LAOS UNLESS HE WAS AMEMBER?During interviews with James E. Files, he told of his military record whichincluded a stint with the 82nd Airborne Division concerning covertoperations in Laos in 1959. He said he was supposedly out of the militarybut was actually being paid by the U.S. Army and specifically mentionedbeing part of the "White Star" teams to train Laotian Army regulars. Being aVietnam-era veteran myself and a lay historian, I was surprised that I hadnever heard of the "White Star" teams. In fact, I chalked this term up as apoint against Files since no one I knew had ever heard of such teams. Thenin the summer of 1996, in a telephone conversation with Col. FletcherProuty, I happened to mention that Files claimed to have trained LaotianArmy troops in 1959. "Oh, that was my operation," said Prouty. "They werecalled the White Star teams." Prouty explained that members of the "WhiteStar" teams were "sheep-dipped," He explained this process as "an intricateArmy-devised process by which a man who is in the service as a full careersoldier or officer agrees to go through all the legal and official motionsof resigning from the service. Then, rather than actually being released,his records are pulled from the Army personnel files and transferred to aspecial Army intelligence file. (The Secret Team: pp. 172-173)" This isexactly the process mentioned by Files and, obviously, could go far inexplaining some of the frustrations encountered in trying to verify hismilitary record. Prouty said the "White Star" teams were composed of"sheep-dipped" officers and men who were hired by a private company createdby the CIA and sent to Laos to train troops. Prouty's statements force thequestion --- If Files is a phony and never in the military (as some criticshave asserted), how did he know the correct term "White Star" teams and thecircumstances of their involvement in Laos.unless he was part of it?

[dankbaar]

Operation White Star is on record as beginning in July 1959. That corresponds exactly with the month that Files was shipped out to Laos.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ ... perational scope Strategic Planned by United States Army Special Forces Objective CounterinsurgencyForeign internal defense Date July 1959 - July 1962 Executed by 7th Special Forces Group

[Dealey Joe]

I gar-ron-tee you that young men were joining the Marines with parents signature in 1959going thru basic training and remaining in service.

[Robert Wagner]

dankbaar wrote:Operation White Star is on record as beginning in July 1959. That corresponds exactly with the month that Files was shipped out to Laos.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ ... perational scope Strategic Planned by United States Army Special Forces Objective CounterinsurgencyForeign internal defense Date July 1959 - July 1962 Executed by 7th Special Forces GroupFiles could not have been in Special Forces in 1959 because they don't take new recruits. Entrance requirements are three years experience, NCO rank and special ops training.The Airborne unit in southeast Asia 1959-1962 was 101st at Camp Sukiran, Okinawa. The 82nd was at Fort Bragg NC. Airborne are infantry. They don't do training nor special ops. The cited Wikipedia article says it was called Operation Hotfoot in 1959. Its name was changed to White Star in 1961.

[Bob]

Robert Wagner wrote:dankbaar wrote:Operation White Star is on record as beginning in July 1959. That corresponds exactly with the month that Files was shipped out to Laos.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ ... perational scope Strategic Planned by United States Army Special Forces Objective CounterinsurgencyForeign internal defense Date July 1959 - July 1962 Executed by 7th Special Forces GroupFiles could not have been in Special Forces in 1959 because they don't take new recruits. Entrance requirements are three years experience, NCO rank and special ops training.The Airborne unit in southeast Asia 1959-1962 was 101st at Camp Sukiran, Okinawa. The 82nd was at Fort Bragg NC. Airborne are infantry. They don't do training nor special ops. The cited Wikipedia article says it was called Operation Hotfoot in 1959. Its name was changed to White Star in 1961.We have shown time and time again on this site that Wikipedia is not a reputable source of information. In fact, it contains a lot of DIS-information as a matter of fact...http://www.ctka.net/2010/wiki.htmlNo matter, Wim's overall point is still well taken. As is the story Jim Marrs said about the whole affair. Once again...HOW DID FILES FIND OUT ABOUT THE "WHITE STAR" TEAMS IN LAOS UNLESS HE WAS AMEMBER?During interviews with James E. Files, he told of his military record whichincluded a stint with the 82nd Airborne Division concerning covertoperations in Laos in 1959. He said he was supposedly out of the militarybut was actually being paid by the U.S. Army and specifically mentionedbeing part of the "White Star" teams to train Laotian Army regulars. Being aVietnam-era veteran myself and a lay historian, I was surprised that I hadnever heard of the "White Star" teams. In fact, I chalked this term up as apoint against Files since no one I knew had ever heard of such teams. Thenin the summer of 1996, in a telephone conversation with Col. FletcherProuty, I happened to mention that Files claimed to have trained LaotianArmy troops in 1959. "Oh, that was my operation," said Prouty. "They werecalled the White Star teams." Prouty explained that members of the "WhiteStar" teams were "sheep-dipped," He explained this process as "an intricateArmy-devised process by which a man who is in the service as a full careersoldier or officer agrees to go through all the legal and official motionsof resigning from the service. Then, rather than actually being released,his records are pulled from the Army personnel files and transferred to aspecial Army intelligence file. (The Secret Team: pp. 172-173)" This isexactly the process mentioned by Files and, obviously, could go far inexplaining some of the frustrations encountered in trying to verify hismilitary record. Prouty said the "White Star" teams were composed of"sheep-dipped" officers and men who were hired by a private company createdby the CIA and sent to Laos to train troops. Prouty's statements force thequestion --- If Files is a phony and never in the military (as some criticshave asserted), how did he know the correct term "White Star" teams and thecircumstances of their involvement in Laos.unless he was part of it?

[Robert Wagner]

Bob wrote:Robert Wagner wrote:dankbaar wrote:Operation White Star is on record as beginning in July 1959. That corresponds exactly with the month that Files was shipped out to Laos.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_White_StarFiles could not have been in Special Forces in 1959 because they don't take new recruits. Entrance requirements are three years experience, NCO rank and special ops training.The cited Wikipedia article says it was called Operation Hotfoot in 1959. Its name was changed to White Star in 1961.We have shown time and time again on this site that Wikipedia is not a reputable source of information. In fact, it contains a lot of DIS-information as a matter of fact...http://www.ctka.net/2010/wiki.htmlNo matter, Wim's overall point is still well taken. As is the story Jim Marrs said about the whole affair. Once again...HOW DID FILES FIND OUT ABOUT THE "WHITE STAR" TEAMS IN LAOS UNLESS HE WAS AMEMBER?During interviews with James E. Files, he told of his military record whichincluded a stint with the 82nd Airborne Division concerning covertoperations in Laos in 1959. He said he was supposedly out of the militarybut was actually being paid by the U.S. Army and specifically mentionedbeing part of the "White Star" teams to train Laotian Army regulars.Independent confirmation of the name change can be found at:http://www.soc.mil/swcs/museum/simcoll.htmland ""White Star" began in 1959 as "Operation Hotfoot" with the deployment of 107 United States Army Special Forces soldiers (Green Berets) of the 77th Special Forces Group —later named the 7th SFG in May 1960—under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Arthur D. "Bull" Simons. Because Laos was ostensibly a neutral party to the conflict between the United States and North Vietnam, the soldiers did not wear United States Army uniforms."http://timelines.com/1968/10/palace-dog ... tionNotice it says Green Berets of the 77th Special Forces Group, not 82nd Airborne. There are two simple questions that could ascertain whether Files was a Green Beret:1. What was your MOS? a. Don't remember/don't understand question = he was never in the US military. b. Five digit number beginning with 3 = correct answer. c. Four digit number = he wasn't a Green Beret.2. What foreign language do you speak? Give a brief demonstration. a. None = he wasn't a Green Beret. b. Lao, Thai, Hmong, Khmer, Vietnamese, Isan or Muong = correct answer. c. Other = he wasn't a trainer in Laos.

[Davyjones]

Hi Mr Wagner....fascinating posts on this subject. I am curious about your comment on the MOS number. You say a 5 digit response would be correct but give away a vital number..3 as the first digit.Surely you could keep this to yourself as a means of verification of any response? You say 4 digits is incorrect..but surely any number of digits other than 5 is wrong? A cynic might think that this is a trap! I look forward to responses from the forum to your questions.

[kenmurray]

Davy, as your military career advances with more schooling and rank so does with your MOS ranking. As in my case, I was 54B10, then advanced to 54B30.