KILL THE MESSENGER

[Dealey Joe]

This is not pointed to everyone one this forum, but to several.I am new on this forum and have never been part of any other forum.and realise that for the most part I am looked at as a know nothing beginner,not worthy of consideration and certainly would have nothing of importance to add.The reason for my interest in being here is because I have always known thatthere was much more to the JFK situation than we were being told.I think even Ray Charles could see that.I am not a result of higher education as a lot of you are.sometime you say things that sounds like Shakespeare that I don't even understand.I have grown up in a world where my education has come from "hands on knowledge".I have found that when I refused to learn from my elders I had to do it the hard way.and that everything generally does not go as planned.I learned to listen to what people had to say who were in a position to have informationon something important. And learned to use my gut feelings to sort out the truth from the bullshit.I found it didn't cost me anything to accept what I felt to be presented honesty.I cannnot beleive the animosity of some folks on this forum who refuse to accept what is told to us by those who at great risk to themselves have exposed their soul to us and the world.What proffit or gain is in it for them? Some of you are very advanced in the art of research.What do you believe? Can you believe anything.? are you looking for facts?Or are you just persuing a dream hope of solving the greatest crime of the century?Are you ever going to be able to believe anything? shouldn't we be making the things we do know available to the world?All I see is confusion. Mainly because we refuse to accept anything as fact andif you try hard enough you can make a case for some other conclusion of so called fact.I don't see Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, Wim, James, Juduth as attention seekers or self centered agrandisers.they all have a natural desire to persue the truth as they know it and to share with the world.I don't believe anyone really gives a crap if you believe James Files or not.When you publicly state that you do not believe him you are just tearing down what thisforum and web site stands for, Also it is very offensive to me.Life is made up of decisions, some changeable and a few final.To move forward everyone interrested needs to get behing and push.To me this forum and web site is set up to back up the things we already have basic knowledge of.If you can't accept and respect the hard work and tremendous expense that has been put at your disposal.Then go somewhere else!I realise this is not going to make me a popular member of this forum.So be it.

[Jsnow915]

Joe....I have visited other forums and have found alot of people refer to us as Wims cronies and so on...I've already stated there that if you dont believe there was a conspiracy,why dont you take your ball and go home....why are you trying so hard to convince me that Oswald acted alone?...no one can answer that...this site had opened my eyes to ALOT of things... I pray for the human race that its not true,but it all seems plausable...and seems to add up to a few elite families and groups and as long as I have the right to question authority, I will...and so should you and everyone...I see it everyday that people just follow the leader and collect their paychecks and go home and watch "Dancing with The Stars"...its the dumbing of America and keeps you occupied so you dont question the government...unfortunatly,too many people are too trusting in the government...so keep your mind open and your allowed to have an opinion,because we all matter.

[Bob]

Dealey Joe wrote:This is not pointed to everyone one this forum, but to several.I am new on this forum and have never been part of any other forum.and realise that for the most part I am looked at as a know nothing beginner,not worthy of consideration and certainly would have nothing of importance to add.The reason for my interest in being here is because I have always known thatthere was much more to the JFK situation than we were being told.I think even Ray Charles could see that.I am not a result of higher education as a lot of you are.sometime you say things that sounds like Shakespeare that I don't even understand.I have grown up in a world where my education has come from "hands on knowledge".I have found that when I refused to learn from my elders I had to do it the hard way.and that everything generally does not go as planned.I learned to listen to what people had to say who were in a position to have informationon something important. And learned to use my gut feelings to sort out the truth from the bullshit.I found it didn't cost me anything to accept what I felt to be presented honesty.I cannnot beleive the animosity of some folks on this forum who refuse to accept what is told to us by those who at great risk to themselves have exposed their soul to us and the world.What proffit or gain is in it for them? Some of you are very advanced in the art of research.What do you believe? Can you believe anything.? are you looking for facts?Or are you just persuing a dream hope of solving the greatest crime of the century?Are you ever going to be able to believe anything? shouldn't we be making the things we do know available to the world?All I see is confusion. Mainly because we refuse to accept anything as fact andif you try hard enough you can make a case for some other conclusion of so called fact.I don't see Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, Wim, James, Juduth as attention seekers or self centered agrandisers.they all have a natural desire to persue the truth as they know it and to share with the world.I don't believe anyone really gives a crap if you believe James Files or not.When you publicly state that you do not believe him you are just tearing down what thisforum and web site stands for, Also it is very offensive to me.Life is made up of decisions, some changeable and a few final.To move forward everyone interrested needs to get behing and push.To me this forum and web site is set up to back up the things we already have basic knowledge of.If you can't accept and respect the hard work and tremendous expense that has been put at your disposal.Then go somewhere else!I realise this is not going to make me a popular member of this forum.So be it.Ah contraire Joe. Well spoken. From the heart as well. As a limited spokesman for the forum...we are glad to have you aboard. Keep up the great work. However, I will also say that debate is necessary. Because it only makes OUR argument stronger...not weaker. Just look at the Jim DiEugenio-John McAdams debate on Black Op Radio. Jim D. tore McLonenut a new one. A total thrashing. That is what happens when fact meets fiction...or better known as bullshit. The disinformation machine knows this, and that is why people like Jim Marrs, Robert Groden and the like are rarely seen in the MSM. And why bullshitter's like Larry...er...Gary Mack are. The power elite want the truth swept under the carpet, whether it's about the assassinations of JFK, MLK and RFK or 9/11. They want the sheeple to just shuffle along. Many sheeple do just that and believe the words of sellout cowards like Dunkel...er...Mack, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck. It is up to folks like us to pass the word to others, especially the young. No, let's not kill the messenger...let's convey the message...to as many as we can. While we can.

[tom jeffers]

Joe,Thank you for joining this forum and sharing. I hope you know how I feel, I have said it many times. I appreciate you comments and do read everything you post. I rarely comment. I am a one handed typer and try to keep it short. There are those who do not believe many of the things posted here but as long as they are ernestly seeking answers and are not critical, they can make contributions in other areas. I have on occassion visited other websites in fact i had a little battle over at the jfk research site a few months ago. they all think that bob vernon is a snake oil salesman yet they believe him about jimmy. i think you will find that about 90 percent of those who do not believe in the single bullet theory do not believe that jimmy was the grassy knoll shooter. you will also discover that most think they have it all figured out and will not budge. Most just want to push their ideas down your throat instead of looking for the truth. but then again, if you have been around long enough, you also know that most people are idiots. keep posting!Namaste'

[andries]

Joe I like very mutch reading your post,and first off all educated and intelligent are twodifferent things, perhaps as you say you are not high educated,but that doesn,t rule out that your an intelligent and wise person, and i think you are.A mutch more fatal and unpleasant mixture is an educated person who,s automaticly asuming that he is also a verry intelligent person, G Bush ??

[AnthonyAthletic]

Mr Jeffers, you have hit the nail on the head when you say "There are those who do not believe many of the things posted here but as long as they are ernestly seeking answers and are not critical, they can make contributions in other areas"Now I am not saying, and have never said, I do not believe many posts about the JF issue, but I am like many, simply seeking answers, trying to be positive and coming to the conclusion that the JF story can not be dismissed. I do remember your spat over on the Rich DellaRosa forum, it got heated which ended in disgrace, disgrace as such; because it shows fellow researchers who are on the same side, arguing and basically doing the WC supporters job for them, it happens everywhere. Even the name he called you, was detremental, a holier than thou name calling with no respect. I do have much respect for RD and find his research illuminating at times, but as Len Osanic said to Robert Groden when asked about the bickering in the Research Community, well Len simply said, tongue in cheek "Its because those other guys simply don't agree with me"....it brought a laugh to Mr Groden.Ok, here's where I stand as I guess Joe's post was more likely than not directed at myself amongst others for raising the "Hero Worship" of James Files. Firstly, Joe please understand that my post on the other thread was in no way meant to come across with animosity or what many refer to as "internet flaming" to JFKJF or Yourself. Please accept my apologies if you felt that way, but I assure you no attack was intended, and I mean that most sincerely.The post went off on a tangent and as with Wim's forum we have various differing sides with regards to the JFK Assassination. In the interest of fair play, all views should be made welcome on this forum and from all sides, ie The Flat World Society of the Warren Commission, all aspects of the Conspiracy Research Community and the Members who believe/know the JF angle to be true. I am like many an apostle of the Research and Learing community and like everyone on these boards, by research and learning, well it has taught me not to dismiss anything; as anything is possible, even if improbable with the JFK Assassination and Cover up.I stand in the camp as a person who simply does not know if JF did what he did on the fateful day. I don't want to come on these boards and be scolded for thinking JF may not be the knoll shooter, although I have never said that I don't believe the James Files story. My views are simply "It could be true, it is very plausable". I haven't been scolded for holding this opinion nor do I expect to be scolded, I sincerely hope that to be a member here you have to openly state that you are convinced that James Files and what he says is the absolute truth, everyone is allowed a tinge of doubt at times. Many persons on Wim's forum are convinced that JF was the man on the knoll and therefore must have dismissed other evidence as to other possible hitters. After all this is so huge that if James Files were for sure, the knoll shooter then he and many others are meticulously covered up in a troupe of 'Knoll Red Herrings'The story as told by James Files, in the book and dvds is absolutely compelling stuff. The knowledge the history and what appears to be a man recollecting the truth as seen; is what fascinated me. Upon watching the dvd's, they are not only a confession but a history lesson into covert history, of "those men, who we know of but not what they do".I can not dismiss the James Files, Charles Nicoletti, Johnny Roselli confession, Giancana, Atlee Philips, Lansdale, Holt, Plumlee story. Its a huge web with many strands, but all strands lead to the middle. People on these strands don't meet people on the other strands but at the centre all actions lead each strand to the same goal and conclusion. James Files no doubt could have been on one of these strands, but I can not dismiss other stories from other strands of the web, the other people....who "could have been".The two Corsican hitmen based with assassin Lucien Sarti, as stated by Christian David who claimed that JFK was shot by 3 Corsican assassins, Sarti was named as one of the gunmen, possibly "Badgeman", as Sarti was reportedly a "Dresser upper, when plying his trade", hence Sarti in a Police uniform as claimed by Christian David. Sarti too was a user of frangible bullets, to get the job done. This could be true and is plausible, I can not dismiss this but when you look at Badgeman, his position and trajectory don't appear to be the trajectory which hit the President. The angle of trajectory does appear to come from what I describe as the James Files position, left of the tree, angling the shot from the assassins left side. So even though the Sarti Badgeman angle doesn't add up, I still can not dismiss in total. Possible hitter, wrong position?Charles Harrelson, well he withdrew his confession as to shooting JFK, one of the three tramps... possible, but he later claims not. Chauncey Holt was left alone for a spell, what was Harrelson doing at that time? Another visit to the picket fence? Hard to say?Were Eladio Del Valle and Loran Hall both hired by the John Birch Society to do the job, claims are yes/possible, where they behind the fence? Perhaps not, but who can say for sure?Jean Rene Soutre was in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22, 1963, and in Dallas that afternoon. Soutre was picked up by US authorities in Texas within 48 hours of the assassination and expelled from America for Life, this is all strange and compelling too.Roscoe White, ‘Saul’, and ‘Lebanon’, 1990 Ricky White claimed his father Roscoe, a Dallas police officer, had been one of President Kennedy’s assassins. According to Ricky, a detailed description of the conspiracy could be found in Roscoe’s diary, which had disappeared after it was taken by the FBI for inspection. Two other gunmen, referred to in the diary only by the code names ‘Saul’ and ‘Lebanon’, were also involved. In addition Roscoe’s widow, Geneva, told journalist Ron Laytner that she had overheard Roscoe and Jack Ruby plotting to kill Kennedy, adding, ‘We at first thought the assassination was more Mob [but late realised] it was more CIA.’....it goes on and on.You can not rule out Frank Sturgis and Operation 40, James Files says Sturgis was there along with a whole host of hitmen. Sturgis and four Cuban exiles: Orlando Bosch, Pedro Diaz Lang and two brothers named Novis. These men were members of ‘Operation 40', a group of about 30 anti-Castro Cubans and their American advisors originally formed by the CIA in 1960 for the bay of Pigs invasion. Lorenz later stated that Sturgis had been one of the actual gunmen and that he told her after the assassination, "You could have been part of it – you know, part of history. You should have stayed. It was safe. Everything was covered in advance. No arrests, no real newspaper investigation. It was all covered, very professional"The above mentioned only scratch the surface, there are many other claims and involvements. Each as compelling as the next. Its not a case of take your pick, but it could be. What is to be believed? Well the Jury is still out but sifting through the evidence then come 12:30pm on 22 November, 1963 that Grassy Knoll must have been a pretty populated area. The TSBD, Dal Tex and County Records Buildings took could have been packed with bad guys....or a mix of a few, some or none of the above.Apologies, and thank you's.Tony

[Bob]

AnthonyAthletic wrote:Mr Jeffers, you have hit the nail on the head when you say "There are those who do not believe many of the things posted here but as long as they are ernestly seeking answers and are not critical, they can make contributions in other areas"Now I am not saying, and have never said, I do not believe many posts about the JF issue, but I am like many, simply seeking answers, trying to be positive and coming to the conclusion that the JF story can not be dismissed. I do remember your spat over on the Rich DellaRosa forum, it got heated which ended in disgrace, disgrace as such; because it shows fellow researchers who are on the same side, arguing and basically doing the WC supporters job for them, it happens everywhere. Even the name he called you, was detremental, a holier than thou name calling with no respect. I do have much respect for RD and find his research illuminating at times, but as Len Osanic said to Robert Groden when asked about the bickering in the Research Community, well Len simply said, tongue in cheek "Its because those other guys simply don't agree with me"....it brought a laugh to Mr Groden.Ok, here's where I stand as I guess Joe's post was more likely than not directed at myself amongst others for raising the "Hero Worship" of James Files. Firstly, Joe please understand that my post on the other thread was in no way meant to come across with animosity or what many refer to as "internet flaming" to JFKJF or Yourself. Please accept my apologies if you felt that way, but I assure you no attack was intended, and I mean that most sincerely.The post went off on a tangent and as with Wim's forum we have various differing sides with regards to the JFK Assassination. In the interest of fair play, all views should be made welcome on this forum and from all sides, ie The Flat World Society of the Warren Commission, all aspects of the Conspiracy Research Community and the Members who believe/know the JF angle to be true. I am like many an apostle of the Research and Learing community and like everyone on these boards, by research and learning, well it has taught me not to dismiss anything; as anything is possible, even if improbable with the JFK Assassination and Cover up.I stand in the camp as a person who simply does not know if JF did what he did on the fateful day. I don't want to come on these boards and be scolded for thinking JF may not be the knoll shooter, although I have never said that I don't believe the James Files story. My views are simply "It could be true, it is very plausable". I haven't been scolded for holding this opinion nor do I expect to be scolded, I sincerely hope that to be a member here you have to openly state that you are convinced that James Files and what he says is the absolute truth, everyone is allowed a tinge of doubt at times. Many persons on Wim's forum are convinced that JF was the man on the knoll and therefore must have dismissed other evidence as to other possible hitters. After all this is so huge that if James Files were for sure, the knoll shooter then he and many others are meticulously covered up in a troupe of 'Knoll Red Herrings'The story as told by James Files, in the book and dvds is absolutely compelling stuff. The knowledge the history and what appears to be a man recollecting the truth as seen; is what fascinated me. Upon watching the dvd's, they are not only a confession but a history lesson into covert history, of "those men, who we know of but not what they do".I can not dismiss the James Files, Charles Nicoletti, Johnny Roselli confession, Giancana, Atlee Philips, Lansdale, Holt, Plumlee story. Its a huge web with many strands, but all strands lead to the middle. People on these strands don't meet people on the other strands but at the centre all actions lead each strand to the same goal and conclusion. James Files no doubt could have been on one of these strands, but I can not dismiss other stories from other strands of the web, the other people....who "could have been".The two Corsican hitmen based with assassin Lucien Sarti, as stated by Christian David who claimed that JFK was shot by 3 Corsican assassins, Sarti was named as one of the gunmen, possibly "Badgeman", as Sarti was reportedly a "Dresser upper, when plying his trade", hence Sarti in a Police uniform as claimed by Christian David. Sarti too was a user of frangible bullets, to get the job done. This could be true and is plausible, I can not dismiss this but when you look at Badgeman, his position and trajectory don't appear to be the trajectory which hit the President. The angle of trajectory does appear to come from what I describe as the James Files position, left of the tree, angling the shot from the assassins left side. So even though the Sarti Badgeman angle doesn't add up, I still can not dismiss in total. Possible hitter, wrong position?Charles Harrelson, well he withdrew his confession as to shooting JFK, one of the three tramps... possible, but he later claims not. Chauncey Holt was left alone for a spell, what was Harrelson doing at that time? Another visit to the picket fence? Hard to say?Were Eladio Del Valle and Loran Hall both hired by the John Birch Society to do the job, claims are yes/possible, where they behind the fence? Perhaps not, but who can say for sure?Jean Rene Soutre was in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22, 1963, and in Dallas that afternoon. Soutre was picked up by US authorities in Texas within 48 hours of the assassination and expelled from America for Life, this is all strange and compelling too.Roscoe White, ‘Saul’, and ‘Lebanon’, 1990 Ricky White claimed his father Roscoe, a Dallas police officer, had been one of President Kennedy’s assassins. According to Ricky, a detailed description of the conspiracy could be found in Roscoe’s diary, which had disappeared after it was taken by the FBI for inspection. Two other gunmen, referred to in the diary only by the code names ‘Saul’ and ‘Lebanon’, were also involved. In addition Roscoe’s widow, Geneva, told journalist Ron Laytner that she had overheard Roscoe and Jack Ruby plotting to kill Kennedy, adding, ‘We at first thought the assassination was more Mob [but late realised] it was more CIA.’....it goes on and on.You can not rule out Frank Sturgis and Operation 40, James Files says Sturgis was there along with a whole host of hitmen. Sturgis and four Cuban exiles: Orlando Bosch, Pedro Diaz Lang and two brothers named Novis. These men were members of ‘Operation 40', a group of about 30 anti-Castro Cubans and their American advisors originally formed by the CIA in 1960 for the bay of Pigs invasion. Lorenz later stated that Sturgis had been one of the actual gunmen and that he told her after the assassination, "You could have been part of it – you know, part of history. You should have stayed. It was safe. Everything was covered in advance. No arrests, no real newspaper investigation. It was all covered, very professional"The above mentioned only scratch the surface, there are many other claims and involvements. Each as compelling as the next. Its not a case of take your pick, but it could be. What is to be believed? Well the Jury is still out but sifting through the evidence then come 12:30pm on 22 November, 1963 that Grassy Knoll must have been a pretty populated area. The TSBD, Dal Tex and County Records Buildings took could have been packed with bad guys....or a mix of a few, some or none of the above.Apologies, and thank you's.TonyNice take Tony. You brought up a lot of excellent points. As you say, there are many on the CT team that fight among themselves. To me, that takes the focus off the bullshit being conveyed by the Lone Nut club. We ALL (the CT club) agree there was a conspiracy. Yes, we can counter claims by others in our family, but let's not waste a lot of energy doing that. Use that energy to bolster what evidence one may have and counter the lies made by the Warren Commission apologists. Yes, count me as one that believes Jimmy Files, but I don't discourage anyone to give their view as how the JFK assassination went down. Debate is good. I know I have learned a LOT because of this site and this forum. Everyone brings their own expertise and their own views on what might have happened on 11/22/1963. We have some people in the forum that communicate often to the best of the best in the JFK assassination research community. From my vantage point, I think this forum is truly respected in that community, and we have brought new theories to the table ourselves. Let's just continue to learn, educate and debate. Knowledge is good- see our forum, this site and other JFK assassination sites. Hiding knowledge is bad- see the 6th Floor Museum and the Warren Commission. I know what team I'm on. And I have some GREAT teammates as well.

[Dealey Joe]

i meant no disrespect to anyone.I have warm feelings toward everyone here.I believe Jimmy FilesI also know there may have been others there ready to fireI also believe the call to standdown and I think it made a big difference in how it came down.I am open to evidence that puts someone in certain places however I place greater weighton evidence from someone who says I did it.There were all kinds of possibilities of what actually happened.When someone from across the road calls me a name I can easily overlook it because it does not matter.When someone in my own house does I need to deal with it.What I am trying to say is that it is fine to discuss all possible angles but when we are discussing something that has been accepted as factual on this site a liitle courtesy is in order.Hell if someone wants to call me a Wim clone that makes me feel good...I wish I knew a fraction of what he knows.To me heresay is not fact ie. someone said someone saw.....In order to arrive at a conclusion of fact or probability we need to have general ideas as to what may have happened.For instance I think everyone is backwards on what was going on with LHO after the shooting.but that is my opinion and I do not have the facts to back it up.my message was just meant as a shocker to get us to re evaluate.please forgive me if I have offended anyone.Another thing to keep in mind.When you are out in front you are more likely to be shot at..and if you hit on a bit of truth all the forces of evil are going to come down on your head.

[tom jeffers]

AAKeep posting, thanks for your input."It's a mystery, it's a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma! "

[Kirk]

Joe, I don't think that at all. I am even newer to this, and I have appreciated your post, and insight, as much as anyone else's. I sure I have rubbed a few the wrong way on here, and not on purpose, but I do the same in my non virtual life. I come at this whole thing because it is meaningful to me, and I want to know the answers, and I want the real truth, and those responsible punished if possible. I have always know more about this then anyone else in my non-virtual world, but on here that is not the case. Plus I read many that hold on tight to their views no matter what, and that is their right, just as it is your right to see things as you see them.ThanksDealey Joe wrote:This is not pointed to everyone one this forum, but to several.I am new on this forum and have never been part of any other forum.and realise that for the most part I am looked at as a know nothing beginner,not worthy of consideration and certainly would have nothing of importance to add.The reason for my interest in being here is because I have always known thatthere was much more to the JFK situation than we were being told.I think even Ray Charles could see that.I am not a result of higher education as a lot of you are.sometime you say things that sounds like Shakespeare that I don't even understand.I have grown up in a world where my education has come from "hands on knowledge".I have found that when I refused to learn from my elders I had to do it the hard way.and that everything generally does not go as planned.I learned to listen to what people had to say who were in a position to have informationon something important. And learned to use my gut feelings to sort out the truth from the bullshit.I found it didn't cost me anything to accept what I felt to be presented honesty.I cannnot beleive the animosity of some folks on this forum who refuse to accept what is told to us by those who at great risk to themselves have exposed their soul to us and the world.What proffit or gain is in it for them? Some of you are very advanced in the art of research.What do you believe? Can you believe anything.? are you looking for facts?Or are you just persuing a dream hope of solving the greatest crime of the century?Are you ever going to be able to believe anything? shouldn't we be making the things we do know available to the world?All I see is confusion. Mainly because we refuse to accept anything as fact andif you try hard enough you can make a case for some other conclusion of so called fact.I don't see Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, Wim, James, Juduth as attention seekers or self centered agrandisers.they all have a natural desire to persue the truth as they know it and to share with the world.I don't believe anyone really gives a crap if you believe James Files or not.When you publicly state that you do not believe him you are just tearing down what thisforum and web site stands for, Also it is very offensive to me.Life is made up of decisions, some changeable and a few final.To move forward everyone interrested needs to get behing and push.To me this forum and web site is set up to back up the things we already have basic knowledge of.If you can't accept and respect the hard work and tremendous expense that has been put at your disposal.Then go somewhere else!I realise this is not going to make me a popular member of this forum.So be it.